[Don Payne]

I think the tone of my first post was a little off. I really feel for ya spending $2000 and then having to spend more later.

I am anal retentive and really skeptical about purchasing stuff that has already been machined. So much so that I am really struggling with the idea of buying any crate engine. I always feel much better about spending more money if I get the chance to oversee the machine work before it is all done. Then, when I try to stick to my budget, things usually don't go perfect. I just have to expect it when I am trying to get a "deal".

 

[astglenn]

Bill's point is a good one. I have seen this happen several times.

 

[dlotz]

You bought a set of heads from Keith, this I get, what I am not sure about is the timeline afterwards. That and are you sure the heads that "your engine builder" showed you after 2 years are the very same heads that you originally purchased from Keith? If you were gone for an extended period of time, is it at all possible (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the heads were switched somewhere along the way? I've known many who have purchased from Keith in the past without an issue, not taking sides, but just bringing up the possibility of something else (or someone else) coming into play here, something that perhaps was not thought of by any or all parties involved up until right now.


Bill S.

PS: I bring this up because I was in a similar situation with a BOSS 302 short block many years ago. In my case it turned out that the short block I sold was not the same one that came back from the engine builder for my buyer (I had the partial VIN in my Ebay ad, which is how we knew)......The engine builder had en employee who switched the blocks, my good one for his bad one thinking nobody would notice........

Bill

The heads stayed in my possession the entire time I was deployed. I waited until I had all the parts before taking everything to the builder.

I have kept real colse track on matching dates codes between all my parts and they are not a different set of heads.

 

[dlotz]

I think the tone of my first post was a little off. I really feel for ya spending $2000 and then having to spend more later.

I am anal retentive and really skeptical about purchasing stuff that has already been machined. So much so that I am really struggling with the idea of buying any crate engine. I always feel much better about spending more money if I get the chance to oversee the machine work before it is all done. Then, when I try to stick to my budget, things usually don't go perfect. I just have to expect it when I am trying to get a "deal".

Don

No offence taken. I am too anal (the engineer part of me) which is why I looked at big name vendors such as Forte, and others on our forums. I feel safe in dealing with them because they are supporting members and I feel they are here (still here) because they are safe. I thought the same thing about Keith when I first saw them advertised by him on ebay. And still I called him and talked in detail about my build and the heads before I agreed to buy them.

 

[David Borden]

Sorry you had the trouble you did.... If I understand this, you bought used heads from him a couple years ago but didnt have them checked out till a couple years later? Then brought them to another vendor to have work done on them?

Were you asking for KC to pay for the work another vendor put into them 2 years later?

I had an engine built by KC and was very happy with the service and quality of the product.

David

 

[mikeinatlanta]

Kieth offered to buy them back. It's on you after that. If anything, this would encourage me to buy from him. I like vendors that don't cower to the internet community.

 

[FFR5452]

Keith Black is also an engine builder
http://www.keithblack.com/

Now I remember.

Noted Hemi Engine Builder of the 70's.

 

[dlotz]

Sorry you had the trouble you did.... If I understand this, you bought used heads from him a couple years ago but didnt have them checked out till a couple years later? Then brought them to another vendor to have work done on them?

Were you asking for KC to pay for the work another vendor put into them 2 years later?

I had an engine built by KC and was very happy with the service and quality of the product.

David

David

Yes and no. I bought the heads and was then deployed twice to Iraq shortly after buying them. So they sat with all of my other engine stuff in the basement until I got back from the war and started building.

When we started building we dove into inspecting the heads in detail. Honestly when I bought the heads from Keith, I respected his reputation enough that I didn't think otherwise to not believe him when he told me the heads were in great condition and that I wouldn't have a problem with them.


We found the problem, sent them back to Keith to fix for and additional $300 cost and when we got them back we found that he (someone in his shop) cut the valve margin on most of all the exhaust valves to almost nothing, cracked all of the guides and didn't do a real good job replacing the exhaust seats (they were all at different heights).

After that Keith denied that the work was bad and the heads couldn't be used. I asked him if he would help me with the cost to getthe heads completely fixed and he declined to pay for another shops work (which I agree with) but he wouldn't even refund me the extra $300 I paid.

He later agreed to refund me the $300 and send me a new set of valves. But he never sent them and then he outed himself on the CC forum. I never mentioned his name prior to him doing so himself.

Since then I decided to have the heads finished at another vendor. I didn't want to send the heads back to Keith because he only offered to refund the origional purchase prise, not the extra $500 I spent in shipping and labor I paid him to fix them the second time.

Maybe if I had paid Keith to build me an entire engine I would be more of a valued customer to him, but I don't think my purchase was worth enough to him. He mentioned that these might have been a set of heads that he received in on a trade. But regardless, if he is going to turn around and sell them as being in great condition, it is his responsibility to make sure he knows the condition of what he is selling.

Regardless if they were trad-ins. He is selling them.

 

[dlotz]

Kieth offered to buy them back. It's on you after that.

Minus the extra work and labor I paid him to fix them the second time........

If he wanted to offer a real refund he should have offered to refund all the money I spent with him and not just the origional purchase price.

 

[JKleiner]

Jeff

 

[FFR5452]

It's turning into a dog pile over at Club Cobra.

Everyone backed the customer till KC volunteered that it was he that sold the heads.

Now everyone has switched teams in support of the seller.

Go figure!

 

[dlotz]

It's turning into a dog pile over at Club Cobra.

Everyone backed the customer till KC volunteered that it was he that sold the heads.

Now everyone has switched teams in support of the seller.

Go figure!

Well not everyone has switched teams... there are still a few arguing here and there.

It blows my mind. I used the forum to make my fellow members aware of the work a certain shop did for me with out posting the name. They hound me and hound me for the name so "They don't run into the same person." I held back from revealing his name for the longest time and then finally when everyone badgers me for his name and I tell them who did the work I'm left flapping in the wind.........

Everyone thinks I am after a refund but I have been done and moved on long ago. Heads have already been fixed, and on the engine!

I Do not want a refund. I am just letting eneryone know what I dealt with and posted the emails so that they would see the whole story black and white no "well that's just your side of the story" stuff

Bottom line is that the work was done by Keith (or someone at his shop) and the pictures showed what he sent out the door. Everyone wanted to know who in their right mind would cut valve margin down to that low of a level and hounded me for the name. I finaly let them know who did the work.

 

[dlotz]

Jeff

HAHA

That is funny. Actually, I feel like that horse.

Where do you guys get thes automated clips from? I actually like DOC'c cheers beer mugs!

 

[dlotz]

Sorry you had the trouble you did....
David

P.S.

Dave thanks for the help and info on the Sway bar issue.

 

[TonyTiger]

Whew, just finished reading every word of every post...

Just my experience, handling stuff like this in a public internet forum is no better than litigating it - there will be no winner - everybody involved will lose. Both of you will lose. in Keith's case, he stand's to lose more because he has a reputation to maintain that affects his business. I recommend giving Keith a call and working something out, then closing out these threads.

That is the best that either of you can hope for now.

Just my two cents.

 

[Frank Messina]

I posted this to the CC thread.

"The problem I see here is that the parties came to an amicable settlement arrangement that was mutually agreeable to both parties, and then vendor changed his mind and reneged on the deal. If he had stuck to what he said he was going to do there wouldn't be a thread here."

The buy back offer is what works best for KC not Dlotz and looks like a classic "what was I thinking moment". Buy them back at the original $2000 price and resell them again for $2000 and be out nothing, or honor the deal for $300 and new exhaust valves. Seems clear to me how that thought procees went. If Keith Craft thought Dan was FOS and those heads were so great, he could have put the brakes on at the beginning and done the refund thing then. It's Dan's engine, only he can decide what parts are acceptable to him. All that chest thumping about NHRA this and race that is just puffery not relevant to the issue at hand. i.e. the heads Dan bought from Keith Craft were way less than prime. And for a guy that supposedly builds record setting race engines to suggest it's fine to use heads with sunken valves, cracked valve guides and valve height all over the map in a Blueprinted Hi-PO motor is ludicrous. I wonder how many records he'd set or races he'd win following that doctrine. Keith Craft may do a lot of things right which has earned him a good reputation, but he screwed up on this one
Frank

 

[FFR5452]

Uh oh Frank!

Here come the guys from CC with a big bucket of hot tar. :cursing:

 

[Frank Messina]

Hey thanks Jim. Watch my back for me, will you?:scared:
Frank

 

[otis]

Well it worked for me. This took KC off my list of potential engine builders. I was planning a 427W aluminum block with stack injection. It does pay to remember the customer is always right.

Otis

 

[rockpool]

Keith Craft and individual disagree...

who would guess - customer disagrees with vendor, takes it online, everyone chimes in....

Whatever the outcome, Keith's reputation is besmirched. I'd vote for the moderators to just delete this thread. Much like fluffy dice, it serves no function and adds no value.