I took the time to read through - my opinion is you should have taken him up on the offer to buy the heads back and left it there - you were obviously not satisfied with their work, didn't have a "relationship' with the company, and sometimes it's just better to cut and run. I'm sure Keith Craft can find lots of people to support their good name.

What you did is akin to being a jerk in a restaurant - you can NEVER win. Just take your refund and walk away..

 

I also read the entire thread. I've never done business with Keith, nor plan on it (too rich for my blood), but I think he tried to make this deal right for you. He obviously felt bad about it, and offered to buy them back.

I'm sure this isn't what you expected to hear, but, I don't have a lower opinion of Keith Black after reading this. I think you asked him to make it right, and he offered, but you still refused, on principal. I "get" principal, but don't smear his name all over the internet just because you didn't take his fair deal.

Greg

 

I think you asked him to make it right, and he offered, but you still refused, on principal. I "get" principal, but don't smear his name all over the internet just because you didn't take his fair deal.

Greg

Greg

Fair deal?

If you read ALL of the threads you would have seen that I was asked by many to reveal this vendor. So I am not SMEARING his name bacause I was not happy. I did not reveal him on the forum, he revealed himself. I am not trying to get anything more out of this other than informing other member of my dealings with him as I was asked to. You obviouslt DID NOT read the disclaimer about not reading or comenting.

You are missing the fact that he offered to buy the heads back at the ORIGIONAL PRICE and not with the added $$$ I paid him ON TOP of that ORIGIONAL PRICE. It would have cost me an additional $70 to ship them back to him so that would have put me out close to $500 invested OVER the origional price.

Also, you are missing why I posted his emails where he says there is nothing wrong with the valves and how he bad mouths everyone else and make the excuse that these must have been traded in heads. It is clear as day in the pictures AND verrified by all the other posts from other vendors that they were not good parts. Yet he sold them as such and tried to give excuses there after.

He tried to make it right at my cost!

And what is to say he would have refunded my money? He said that he would send me the $300 and new valves but he didn't do that either.

 

I don't have a lower opinion of Keith either. I'm sorry for your troubles, but I think he tried to make this good. I may be needing some engine work in the near future and I'll be heading to Arkansas. I'll take my chances

 

Look at the title of this thread. This is the third thread in your crusade to let people know "what kind of a business" you think Keith Black runs, so yeah, you're smearing his name. Let's not start yet another "I hate Keith Black" thread. You've already started two of those on two different forums. We can all read them and formulate our own opinions. I'm sorry if you don't agree with us, but we're entitled to our opinions, as are you. But let's not waste time rehashing what you've already done in your two threads mentioned above.

If this thread turns into page upon page of you ranting about Keith Black, and everyone else piling onto either your side or Keith's, the thread will be closed. You've "warned" the FFCARS community about your experience with Keith by posting your original post, so let's leave it at that. We're an intelligent bunch, and can arrive at our own conclusions.



Greg

 

Who is Keith Black? Isn't he a Country Western singer? I didn't know he also built engines. Just kidding.

Obviously KC knows his stuff, and if he states that the heads will perform just fine, I would take his word for it. HOWEVER, it sounds like you are not convinced, so take the money offered and start over again. There is no solution here that is going to make BOTH of you happy.

And I have no problem with either of you. You treated KC with respect but were not going to settle for less than your definition of "good heads". You had expectations that were not met and gave him every chance to correct the situation. Looks like a difference in opinion on both sides and the two of you should get a divorce, split the property and go your own ways.

Just my opinion as usual.

 

Who is Keith Black?

Keith Black is also an engine builder
http://www.keithblack.com/

 

He's a country singer Jim. Oh crap, thats Clint.

 

I would agree that the quality of the heads were not up to your standards. If you want a top quality rebuild, then you have to do what you did and oversee the rebuild and spare no expense getting them perfect.

It sounds more like wanting to purchase a Cadillac on a Geo budget. You can always hope, but odds are you are going to have to spend the money if you want top quality.

I think KC offered the right thing in the end.

 

"Keith Black"...now that's funny. I don't dare edit my typo now, because it's just too darn hilarious.

Greg

 

Dude....

love this quote!!

"I am not just some guy in the Army that opens his wallet for a turn key car, I do have a Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering and have been working on cars for quite a few years."

What ARMY have you been in ?!? You really think the pay is that good?? A little out of touch there and I don't take too kindly to this statement! I BUILT BOTH mine! and have several buds who BUILT theirs! If they happen to save up enough money between deployments to IRAQ and "the stan", and decide to to buy one out right in order to allow them to enjoy it before their NEXT deployment (normally 12 months later) then more power to them! It certainly doesn't make them less qualified or knowledgeable about how to build an engine, nor does it make them any less intelligent as your statement implies. As a matter of fact, a lot of guys I knew often rebuilt their own stuff, BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT AFFORD to pay somebody else to do it!!

Thanks again for your high opinion of our Troops. Sleep well. They will make sure nobody disturbs you.

 

Erik/Chief

I think you are confused here. I totaly agree with you. I have been in the Army going on 15 years now and I do have multiple deployments under my belt. If you read the complte thread you would have seen that I was deployed twice "back to back" right after I bought the heads.

I think you misunderstood this statement and/or did not read the complete story. My point when I made this statement was exactly what you stated. I did not like how he was treating me like I was someone with more money than knowledge and didn't know what I was talking about when it came to building engines. He was treating me like I was just some guy in the Army without any knowledge of cars or engine building. The fact that I said "some Army guy" is because I am actually the "some Army guy" I referenced. He was certainly NOT treating me like a paying customer or for that matter a veteran of two wars defending his right and ability to even live free and have a business. However, I did not play that card.

And lord knows I don't have the $$$ to throw away. Which is why I was quite upset when he told me that I would have no issues when I bought them from him. Can you imagine what it was like having to come up an extra $1000 to finish my engine that I wasn't expecting to have to spend in the first place when he told me the heads would have no problems?

It took my two deployments to Iraq just to buy my FFR kit. And a LOT of hard work to find the parts to build the 427. Just like you said.....so that I could afford it.

 

Don't you guys think that when you spend $2,000 on a set of heads advertised with new valves, springs and a valve job in great condition, you have a right to expect the product to be in the advertised condition? If I spent money on that kind of junk, I would have gone ballistic and I am a patient man.

Bruce

 

Thanks Bruce

That is what I am trying to get at here. They were advertised as stated above and I was quite upset when I had to come up with an extra $1000 ON THE SPOT which I didn't have at the time to finish the engine build.....(thank you Master Card)

The emails show how he blaintly refused to agree that the heads were not useable despite everyones agreement that they were junk and how nobody else would put them into their engine. He even went to the level of telling me that my engine builder is trying to take advantage of me bacause I didn't know anything about heads. I was not having this done a NAPA ya know, the guys I am working with on the engine is VERY VERY well known when it comes to FE's.

 

I have worked with Keith on a dozen or so engine builds (not mine but was heavily involved in the projects for different customers). Were things always perfect? Nope, we had some issues, but Keith, Shelly and crew always bent over backwards to make things right. They were sometimes a little unorganized, but I think that was due to the growth of the business at that time.

Sorry that you weren't able to make things right with them, or vice versa as the case may be.

 

I didn't read the other post but, think about how many times this has happened on this forum and other places. You buy something and when you get it, it turns out not to be as advertised. You either called or email the vendor and asked them to make it right, and if that didn't happen what did you do.....you got on this forum and you did exactly what this guy did, you warned others. I'm not saying what he did or how he went about it is right, but you need to cut him some slack and understand what he is going thru. I've been there and I know there are others that have also. In fact if I remember correctly there was a post not to long ago about something similar...and he wouldn't post the vendors name either. I think if I had spent 2 grand on a part and it wasn't as adveertised I'd be pissed too. Just my 2 cents.
Lile

 

You bought a set of heads from Keith, this I get, what I am not sure about is the timeline afterwards. That and are you sure the heads that "your engine builder" showed you after 2 years are the very same heads that you originally purchased from Keith? If you were gone for an extended period of time, is it at all possible (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the heads were switched somewhere along the way? I've known many who have purchased from Keith in the past without an issue, not taking sides, but just bringing up the possibility of something else (or someone else) coming into play here, something that perhaps was not thought of by any or all parties involved up until right now.


Bill S.

PS: I bring this up because I was in a similar situation with a BOSS 302 short block many years ago. In my case it turned out that the short block I sold was not the same one that came back from the engine builder for my buyer (I had the partial VIN in my Ebay ad, which is how we knew)......The engine builder had en employee who switched the blocks, my good one for his bad one thinking nobody would notice........

 

Bill

The heads stayed in my possession the entire time I was deployed. I waited until I had all the parts before taking everything to the builder.

I have kept real colse track on matching dates codes between all my parts and they are not a different set of heads.

 

I think the tone of my first post was a little off. I really feel for ya spending $2000 and then having to spend more later.

I am anal retentive and really skeptical about purchasing stuff that has already been machined. So much so that I am really struggling with the idea of buying any crate engine. I always feel much better about spending more money if I get the chance to oversee the machine work before it is all done. Then, when I try to stick to my budget, things usually don't go perfect. I just have to expect it when I am trying to get a "deal".

 

Don

No offence taken. I am too anal (the engineer part of me) which is why I looked at big name vendors such as Forte, and others on our forums. I feel safe in dealing with them because they are supporting members and I feel they are here (still here) because they are safe. I thought the same thing about Keith when I first saw them advertised by him on ebay. And still I called him and talked in detail about my build and the heads before I agreed to buy them.

 

Bill's point is a good one. I have seen this happen several times.

 

Sorry you had the trouble you did.... If I understand this, you bought used heads from him a couple years ago but didnt have them checked out till a couple years later? Then brought them to another vendor to have work done on them?

Were you asking for KC to pay for the work another vendor put into them 2 years later?

I had an engine built by KC and was very happy with the service and quality of the product.

David

 

David

Yes and no. I bought the heads and was then deployed twice to Iraq shortly after buying them. So they sat with all of my other engine stuff in the basement until I got back from the war and started building.

When we started building we dove into inspecting the heads in detail. Honestly when I bought the heads from Keith, I respected his reputation enough that I didn't think otherwise to not believe him when he told me the heads were in great condition and that I wouldn't have a problem with them.


We found the problem, sent them back to Keith to fix for and additional $300 cost and when we got them back we found that he (someone in his shop) cut the valve margin on most of all the exhaust valves to almost nothing, cracked all of the guides and didn't do a real good job replacing the exhaust seats (they were all at different heights).

After that Keith denied that the work was bad and the heads couldn't be used. I asked him if he would help me with the cost to getthe heads completely fixed and he declined to pay for another shops work (which I agree with) but he wouldn't even refund me the extra $300 I paid.

He later agreed to refund me the $300 and send me a new set of valves. But he never sent them and then he outed himself on the CC forum. I never mentioned his name prior to him doing so himself.

Since then I decided to have the heads finished at another vendor. I didn't want to send the heads back to Keith because he only offered to refund the origional purchase prise, not the extra $500 I spent in shipping and labor I paid him to fix them the second time.

Maybe if I had paid Keith to build me an entire engine I would be more of a valued customer to him, but I don't think my purchase was worth enough to him. He mentioned that these might have been a set of heads that he received in on a trade. But regardless, if he is going to turn around and sell them as being in great condition, it is his responsibility to make sure he knows the condition of what he is selling.

Regardless if they were trad-ins. He is selling them.

 

Kieth offered to buy them back. It's on you after that. If anything, this would encourage me to buy from him. I like vendors that don't cower to the internet community.

 

Kieth offered to buy them back. It's on you after that.

Minus the extra work and labor I paid him to fix them the second time........

If he wanted to offer a real refund he should have offered to refund all the money I spent with him and not just the origional purchase price.

 

Jeff

 

HAHA

That is funny. Actually, I feel like that horse.

Where do you guys get thes automated clips from? I actually like DOC'c cheers beer mugs!

 

It's turning into a dog pile over at Club Cobra.

Everyone backed the customer till KC volunteered that it was he that sold the heads.

Now everyone has switched teams in support of the seller.

Go figure!

 

Well not everyone has switched teams... there are still a few arguing here and there.

It blows my mind. I used the forum to make my fellow members aware of the work a certain shop did for me with out posting the name. They hound me and hound me for the name so "They don't run into the same person." I held back from revealing his name for the longest time and then finally when everyone badgers me for his name and I tell them who did the work I'm left flapping in the wind.........

Everyone thinks I am after a refund but I have been done and moved on long ago. Heads have already been fixed, and on the engine!

I Do not want a refund. I am just letting eneryone know what I dealt with and posted the emails so that they would see the whole story black and white no "well that's just your side of the story" stuff

Bottom line is that the work was done by Keith (or someone at his shop) and the pictures showed what he sent out the door. Everyone wanted to know who in their right mind would cut valve margin down to that low of a level and hounded me for the name. I finaly let them know who did the work.

 

Whew, just finished reading every word of every post...

Just my experience, handling stuff like this in a public internet forum is no better than litigating it - there will be no winner - everybody involved will lose. Both of you will lose. in Keith's case, he stand's to lose more because he has a reputation to maintain that affects his business. I recommend giving Keith a call and working something out, then closing out these threads.

That is the best that either of you can hope for now.

Just my two cents.

 

I posted this to the CC thread.

"The problem I see here is that the parties came to an amicable settlement arrangement that was mutually agreeable to both parties, and then vendor changed his mind and reneged on the deal. If he had stuck to what he said he was going to do there wouldn't be a thread here."

The buy back offer is what works best for KC not Dlotz and looks like a classic "what was I thinking moment". Buy them back at the original $2000 price and resell them again for $2000 and be out nothing, or honor the deal for $300 and new exhaust valves. Seems clear to me how that thought procees went. If Keith Craft thought Dan was FOS and those heads were so great, he could have put the brakes on at the beginning and done the refund thing then. It's Dan's engine, only he can decide what parts are acceptable to him. All that chest thumping about NHRA this and race that is just puffery not relevant to the issue at hand. i.e. the heads Dan bought from Keith Craft were way less than prime. And for a guy that supposedly builds record setting race engines to suggest it's fine to use heads with sunken valves, cracked valve guides and valve height all over the map in a Blueprinted Hi-PO motor is ludicrous. I wonder how many records he'd set or races he'd win following that doctrine. Keith Craft may do a lot of things right which has earned him a good reputation, but he screwed up on this one
Frank

 

Uh oh Frank!

Here come the guys from CC with a big bucket of hot tar. :cursing:

 

Hey thanks Jim. Watch my back for me, will you?:scared:
Frank

 

Well it worked for me. This took KC off my list of potential engine builders. I was planning a 427W aluminum block with stack injection. It does pay to remember the customer is always right.

Otis

 

Im not sure who is right in the deal. I suspect its a bit of both here. However, man, I dont agree the customer is always right. There are many times I have been privy to customer service issues and the truth is... some customers are plain nutty... and you are better off cutting your losses!

The real issue here, is the big delay in time between when they were bought and checked. IMHO, its really up to the purchaser to have stuff inspected in a reasonable time frame, especially used parts. I feel bad its one of "ours" who had the issue... just a bad deal on both sides. For me the killer is the time and Im suprised he offered what he did.

David

 

Keith Craft and individual disagree...

who would guess - customer disagrees with vendor, takes it online, everyone chimes in....

Whatever the outcome, Keith's reputation is besmirched. I'd vote for the moderators to just delete this thread. Much like fluffy dice, it serves no function and adds no value.

 

who would guess - customer disagrees with vendor, takes it online, everyone chimes in....

Whatever the outcome, Keith's reputation is besmirched. I'd vote for the moderators to just delete this thread. Much like fluffy dice, it serves no function and adds no value.

Not going to be closed or deleted unless people get out of hand. The customer had a legitmate concern and is bringing his situation to light for others to make their own judgement as to should they use this vendor.