Not the best thing to do. Could eventually lead to synchro failure

 

One of the first things my dad taught me when he was teaching me to drive a standard was how to shift up and down without depressing the clutch pedal. I think he was trying to make me more in tune with the machine and hopefully keep me from being abusive to it.
If it is done correctly you do not need to use the clutch and IMHO it is easier on the synchros this way than when using the clutch. My reasoning is that when you are using the clutch you are also using the synchros to line up into the next gear and each time there will be wear however minute that may be. When you are shifting without the clutch and using engine speed to do it you are essentially lining up the synchros and not causing wear.
The problem lies in that getting it perfect everytime doesn't always happen.

Anyways, I don't think popping it out of 5th and coasting will hurt the trans.



BTW, I learned to drive without a clutch on a '49 Ford 1/2 ton....... no synchros!

 

Not a problem. If there's no load, it should slip out of gear with gentle pressure on the shift handle. If it needs more than gentle guidance, use the clutch.

 

long answer: NO!

 

I do it with my daily driver all the time. If you let off the gas it usually slips right into neutral without much effort at all. I dont believe it will cause any ill effects unless youre forcing it.

Mike

 

No clutch



Why?

 

Why?

To wear the brakes out quicker..:confused1:

 

I do that once in a while. The problem is getting it at that perfect no load condition. On the gas loads it one way. Off the gas loads it the other way. Moving the shifter just at the perfect point in between doesn't always happen. So I agree w/ the very light touch theory.If it doesn't move then give up and push in the clutch.

 

Like Craig states, it's a "window" where it will drop out easily. I will sometimes do this coming up to a light as well and I just gently pull on the shifter (pretty much ther weight of my arm on it, not so much actually "pulling") and as it moves through that loading one way to the other during coasting it'll drop right out.

Don't do it a lot, but when I do it's just a light touch...

Oh, and yes, I learned to drive without a clutch too in a pal's '85 Mustang GT with a broken clutch cable. It's not easy, but once you get the hang of rpm and load range and matching the rpms it comes to you...

Mark

 

floating the gears

...is what it's called in the trucking world. It doesn't hurt anything, if you do it right, just as the others have said.

 

...is what it's called in the trucking world. It doesn't hurt anything, if you do it right, just as the others have said.

Shifting with out a clutch....Truckers do it Absolutley all the time.. BUT, it is easier with a slow reving diesel than a high reving/quick reving High performance engine.. I speak from experience....

Cobraearl

 

Mort,

Do you have power brakes, and if not, what kind of braking system do you have? Reason for the question is....my brakes are not that great to me and I like to use the compression to slow down. Not only does that help me slow down but I like the sound. Fifth into third is my favorite.

I bought a set of brakes from Gordon for the rear and I can lock 'em up if I want but the pedal pressure is significant.

Regards

Bob

 

Bob, no power brakes. I can lock em up no problem, i am running old style- front discs and rear drums. So it sounds like others may do this. I am certainly not yanking it out of 5th, there is a sweet spot where it almost pulls out too easy. Maybe its after a long day and I am getting lazy, or i have my wife in the car and a forced downshift coming home from dinner is too much. So I think at this point I am not gonna worry about it. I am going to tear the trans down this winter and look at it anyways. If this did shorten the life of the trans by some small amount, I am not going to worry about it. Not like I am piling the miles on this car.

 

man, i certainly hope no damage would be done....

i learned how to do it in my '85 IROC-Z (rare 5-speed)

i did it for 20 years, 200x a day in my Integra, all gears, and all the time in the roadster...

but like Mark said, it has to be at the right RPM and it pulls right out... i know what RPM to do it on the roadster.

sometimes the slightest tap on the throttle and it comes right out.

i will be watching this, and if there is any risk of damage, like yoda said, you must un-learn what you have learned.

.:icon22:

 

X2

I've done it in all gears, almost every time, in every stick shift car I've owned. The only time I normally use the clutch is to engage either reverse or first from a dead stop. Otherwise, It's clutchless shifting all the way, through all gears, both up and down shifting.

FWIW, I haven't yet had any manual trans issues as a result, or I would've stopped long ago.

HTH,
Will

 

I don't see how it could cause very significant wear on anything. All you're doing is disengaging the teeth of the synchronizer sleeves from the teeth on the gear. They're already rotating at the same speed, so there's no real wear on the synchro like there would be for a normal shift. Depending on the transmission load at the time, you could be wearing the synchro teeth a little more than you would with the clutch in, but in a light car at cruise or power-off decel it's probably not much.

I'd guess it probably does virtually no damage compared to a single missed shift with the associated grinding.

 

Point not considered Bob. Thanks...now I got that to think about!!

Bob

Bob....what kind of brakes do you run?

 

Bob...Are you saying you just shift into neutral when cruising in fifth and ride your brakes to save your clutch? I know you don't do that but maybe just making a point that although it may save wear on your brakes, there is some wear on your clutch?

Downshifting to decelerate would certainly cause some wear on your clutch, it wouldn't compare to the wear caused by full throttle upshifts as we all do.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but are you just trying to point out there is some wear with downshifting? I doubt you just "snick" it into neutral at 60MPH and ride your brakes.

Oh yeah...what do you have for brakes?

Regards
Bobs

 

Acceleration and deceleration on the clutch causes wear on the friction materials. Especially with a high compression engine or a heavy vehicle. Just part of driving. When approaching a stop, I slip it into neutral and let it coast for a bit until it's time to hit the brakes. Don't ride the brakes, just use them when needed.

I have big Wilwoods, so pads are not cheap. But certainly cheaper and easier than a new clutch.

 

Great points on clutch wear. I'd rather do brakes than a clutch anyday. But honestly, I am not too worried about either, at a couple thousand miles a summer, its going to take a while to wear anything out.

 

Good point..besides it will make for a good winter project ten years down the road...:001_tongue:

Unless I was arriving at a stop light on a highway, my car would start to buck in fifth gear, way before I got to a stop sign. Normally I need to downshift anyway. Often I will pop it out of gear the last few yards just before stopping, and I generally use a light touch on the clutch pedal. No need to fully depress it, as it slips out easy.

Usually I will leave it in neutral, till just prior to the light changing. I have this (probably totally unwarranted) phobia, of my clutch cable snapping, and ramming the car in front of me, punting a pedestrian, or shooting into the intersection cross traffic..:w00t: :001_tongue:

 

They may not break but they will melt, causing full engagement of the clutch. I've done that. I also heard of the Wilwood box failing which would have the same effect.

I, also, always am worried of such failures and wish I'd gone hydraulic instead. Maybe Fortes clutch extender is a solution.

Bob

 

I've done it for decades in three and four speeds. I doubt very seriously there was any measurable wear involved. Synchro's are clutches themselves, cone shaped, to force the gear into rotating at same speed so the shift fork will slip over the teeth and engage. Pulling it back apart when there's no load won't wear them out.

If anything, driving manuals from the early '70s thru the '90's, I had more trouble when I used the clutch - abusively- vs, easing out of gear on coast down. Claiming one part or another might wear more is amusing - it's a high performance machine. Severe wear is to be expected, it's meant to be hammered hard and put away wet.

Be reminded that some owners still use their cars for what they were meant to do: http://www.ffcars.com/forums/21-ffr-type-65-coupe/295639-ouch.html

Would Burt Munro be remembered today because he kept his Indian in the shed and just tinkered with it?

 

Guess it all depends how you were taught to drive a manual transmission. I've never been an advocate of shifting into neutral and riding the brakes to a stop. Seems like you're banking on the fact that you will not need to take swift evasive action and you're limiting your immediate available options, never mind any potential mechanical problems caused by shifting without use of the clutch.

My Dad taught me driving principles which are outlined well in the Road Craft driving manual. Here's a portion that applies on gear shifting:

- One of the hallmarks of a good driver is the ability to change gear smoothly and make the best use of the gear ratios of the vehicle he is driving. To this end the use of the double de-clutch method of changing gear may be beneficial.

- The driver's judgment of the correct use of the gears available to him will improve if he has a good knowledge of the main components of the gearbox and their function.

- No matter how well the driver may handle a vehicle, his use of the gearbox will do much to make or mar his driving. The essential ingredients are the ability to accurately match engine revolutions to road speed together with precise operations of the clutch, accelerator and gears. The first class driver should aim always: a) to be in the correct gear for every road speed and traffic situation, b) to make all gear changes quietly and smoothly, c) to be capable of engaging in a particular gear without first using an intermediate gear, d) to know the approximate maximum road speed in each gear of the vehicle he is driving.

My daily driver has a manual gear box and using these methods, I currently have over 155,000 miles on the original clutch and just replaced the front brake pads for the first time. Many of my previous vehicles have had similar brake and clutch longevity. Mastering the double de-clutch technique contributes to a safe and efficient means of driving, which allows the driver to truly learn the vehicle's capabilities.

 

Not sure if this applies, but the Beril Roos Racing School which uses 150 bhp Formula 2000 racecar. ("When properly driven, our cars will accelerate from 0-60mph in 4.2 seconds, reach 130mph in the draft, pull up to 2g's in the corners, and stop on a dime.")

If I remember correctly, they said no down shifting, brakes were for stopping not the engine. These cars have NO Syncros so every shift had to have the engine speed and the gears at equal or the dreaded grind. Shifting up was clutch in, low to higher gear while keeping rpm's up, clutch out. Shifting down was clutch, shift to neutral, braking to slow, clutch in rev engine shift to lower gear to maintain or increase speed.

I can check my notes if need be.

Granted I don't do this on the street, but it is in the back of my mind. It does make sense like others stated, easier to change brakes than a clutch. Plus down shifting can cause the rears to lock up, easier to control the rear wheel braking with the brakes rather than the engine.

 

If I remember correctly, they said no down shifting, brakes were for stopping not the engine.. .....Plus down shifting can cause the rears to lock up, easier to control the rear wheel braking with the brakes rather than the engine.

Well, than take a spin with Bill Shepherd and tell him it is all wrong what he does the last 30 years. He kicked my butt (911RS) 25 years ago on the Hockenheim Ring with this darn Ford Escord RS2000. He is an awesome driver and a good mate.

So enjoy the clip and reconsider...:winkiss:

 

It leads to gear jump out down the road. You wear the edges of the syncro teeth. If there is absolutely no load maybe ok. I have experienced gear jump out on cars that were deiven this way.

 

The purpose of the clutch is to minimise the pressure on the transmission's drive dogs (teeth on the engagement collar) so that you can slide the collar's teeth into and out of the side of the gears (there is always some pressure). If your vehicle speed matches your engine speed then the pressure on the drive dogs can be within the range of a depressed clutch, in which case there would be no problem. A problem could arise if either the engine's or car's speed changed while you are doing this though. I'd get out of the habit...

If you really want to learn how to drive a car you should learn how to "Heel and Toe". Guys who drive vintage 911s hard learn this lost art as you have to manage the loads on the rear tires (lateral loads balanced against acceleration). The best way to start learning how to do this is by blipping the throttle while downshifting and engine braking when reduceing speed. The idea is to have the ball of your right foot on the brake pedal while pivoting your foot to blip the throttle with the outside of your foot This raises the engine RPMs up to the transmission's inputshaft RPMs which will allow the gear to engage. Once this is mastered you then move on to smoothly setting up for and even entering aggressive turns. (The term refers back to older race cars that had the brake at the heel and the gas at the toe.)

Bob

 

In a modern car, there is no need for downshifting to slow down other than fun. It was only ever done because brakes were not good enough for the job. Downshifting should be about selecting the correct gear for exiting the corner.

On the street a car should rarely be in neutral. You may need to accelerate to avoid something. I had a friend look in his rear view mirror only to see the car behind at full speed. He accelerated off the road to the left. The car in front of him got hit at about 50 mph. Sitting in neutral, it would have been him.

 

...oh BTW, the guys in Bill's rear view mirror, decelerate with the brakes only and save the clutch:haha::haha: