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Shade Tree Mechanic
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Check out my drawing. I'm sure some of it is correct because I took it directly from my distributor & ignition manuals. I have question marks where I'm not sure. The problem is I don't have or want an ignition key, I'm using a remote relay for safety/security. My components are a 6A MSD ignition, MSD 8598 distributor, Blaster 2 coil, toggle kill switch and start button. The MSD Distributor has the magnetic pickup, no vacuum advance.
If we can get this drawing perfected it would be a good one to post in archives for guys NOT running ignition keys.
 

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Premium Member
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Really nice drawing (how do you do that?)

To "Start", + is needed at the solenoid. Your kill switch is closed, the clutch is engaged, and the start buttom pressed.

Is the "thin red wire" from the MSD 6A a hot wire? If not, maybe the + should come from battery.

PS: Ground the starter.
 

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How do you shut off the engine? Breaking the battery connection is not necessarily sufficient to shut off the engine. The ONLY correct way to shut off the engine is to break power to the ignition module (or remove power from a trigger wire to the ignition module if it exists).

Is the thin red-wire meant to be a 12V output like you have it drawn? Or is it supposed to be a 12V trigger input (i.e. applying 12V enables the ignition module)?
 

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Your drawing has several problems.
1.You are going to have a problem running a fuse from the battery to the starter solenoid. The starter will take most or all the amps the battery can produce, a fuse at that location would blow almost everytime, or if sized large enough, wouldn't ever blow.
2. You need to use a relay on the starter button. the starter solenoid will draw enough current to eventually fry a starter button, especially if it is a Honda S2000 starter button.
3. The MSD thin red wire has to be connected to a 12V switched igintion source. It actually powers up the MSD box, and can't be used to energize the starter solenoid.
 

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Senior Member
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Three things;

1) When you turn off the battery cut-off switch your engine will keep running. To rectify this, the wire that comes from the alternator should go to the battery side of your cut-off switch.

2) No ignition switch?

3) Why have the fuse between the battery and the cut-off switch? I see no purpose in this.
 

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Junior Charter Member
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Great post scalded, dog im planning on the same set up so im very interested. I have a 6AL box. 8579 MSD dist,Blaster 2 coil and honda start button, so please keep me in mind when you get the schematic sorted out.

looks great though

jimmy O
 

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Shade Tree Mechanic
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think I need 2 toggle switches plus a start button?
Larry, I did it on Visio and saved as a JPEG
I'll re-do and re-post tonight
 

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Slacker Extraordinaire
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With the configuration you have now disconnecting the battery will NOT stop the engine. The alternator needs to connect to the battery at the terminal on the opposite side of the emergency disconnect switch otherwise the alternator will provide enough juice to run the car without the battery.

I believe the thin red wire is a +12 switched ign INTO the MSD6A not an output. In this case you would connect it to the same point as the Large red wire if not using a key.

The start button does not (should/can not?) need to be connected to the ignition box for any reason and there should be no toggle switch in-line. Are you trying to use the toggle switch as a kill switch? If so one side to the white wire from the 6a and one side to ground will kill the ignition and engine.

Use a relay between the start button and starter or it will kill the button. You can also use the relay with the clutch safety switch and take it out of line from the start button.

 

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I believe the thin red wire is a +12 switched ign INTO the MSD6A not an output. In this case you would connect it to the same point as the Large red wire if not using a key.
The red wire needs to be connected to a switched 12V source to make the MSD function. If not using a key then use a toggle on this wire. If you connect it to the same source as the large red wire, which should be connected directly to battery voltage, it will keep the MSD energized full time, possibly running down the battery, or making it difficult or impossible to stop the engine. It could also shorten the life of the MSD unit.
 

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Shade Tree Mechanic
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14,333 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hozr and J, Thanks I'll take a shot at it now. I see your point on the alt charge wire, but wouldn't the kill switch do the same? Looking at the MSD manuel again I see where that white wire can be used to kill power, you run it to ground to kill power and open to run. I didn't plan to use the remote battery switch as a "kill switch" rather as a safety/security device. Here's the quote from MSD: "Magnetic pickup trigger, When using the mag pickup to trigger the MSD, install a switch to the white wire and the other side to ground. When the white wire is grounded the vehicle will crank but will not start."
 

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Shade Tree Mechanic
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
O.K. let's try this one. According to th MSD owners manual the white wire to ground will kill it when using the magnetic pickup to trigger. So I should be able to connect the alt charge lug wire to the cold side of the battery cuttoff? Hozr? I think the starter button is still wrong? do I need a ground off that? Hozr, you had a 12V line in there? Is that correct? I'm also not 100% clear on the config of the relay with the clutch switch? Also what amp fuse on the alternator? 20-30?

 

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Cone Killer
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Russ,
The light red MSD wire needs to go to a switched 12v source. As you have it now I guess technically that is the case if you count the battery cutoff as a switch but that means that every time you enable battery power to the car the ign. is hot. I'm no guru but I think that doing without the key is fine but you really need a switch (toggle or other). Think of it the same as the average keyed switch. Maybe OFF- ON (accessories)- ON (ignition) From this then power to the MSD, to the starter relay. Does that sound right?
 

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Shade Tree Mechanic
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14,333 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hey Perry, How's it going. I need to come over and see that beast. That sounds good what I can do is just add a second covered toggle switch next to the kill switch with the red 12v lead.
 

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Cone Killer
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1,781 Posts
After I go-cart some and work out any snags I need to tidy up the behind the dash area, but my wiring is done. Come on over, my work week this month is wed. thru fri. ... home most days too.

Sending my pipes out to coating today.

Perry
 

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Slacker Extraordinaire
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Scalded. You want the alternator on the battery side of the disconnect. Think of the alternator as a second battery. If you were to kill the emergency disconnect the vehicle would still have power from the alternator. You want the emergency disconnect to separate all power sources from the electrical system.
 

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Premium Member
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Does the ground on the starter want to be on the case, not the second post?

It seems like if the second post was to ground, then when the starter was energized, there would be a direct battery to ground short.
 

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Shade Tree Mechanic
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14,333 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Perry, I doubt I'll make it this weekend....going to Savannah for some R&R. If I make back early enought Sunday I may give you a call.

Hozr, I got it. Makes perfect sense. I'll make that change.

Larry, I hadn't planned to run a ground wire since it's grounded to the bellhousing and that's groundend to the motor and the motor to frame. I'm not sure what that second post is for?
 

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yes, the starter is grounded in it's case, which is grounded to the frame by the engine-->frame ground strap.

The sketch, however, shows the ground connected to the starter second post. Did you intend that?
 

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Shade Tree Mechanic
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14,333 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
O.K. This is my fourth shot. Is this ready for prime time? Changed the alt cable like Hozr said and added a ground wire to the starter button. Nobody said what size fuse on the alt? So there's no issue with running the thin red wire to the solenoid?



[ March 21, 2007, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Scalded Dog ]
 

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Senior Member
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Hey SD,

I've been following your progress for a while. The cars looking good.

? Why do you have a relay controlling the starter solonoid? The solonoid is a relay. Why not run a positive feed from a point that you can pick up easily that is dead when the battery cutoff is open to one side of the start button, from the other side of the button through the clutch safety switch to the small positive terminal on the solonoid and skip the other relay all together? Also depending on how that relay is wired internaly it looks like either stepping on the clutch or pressing the button would start the car. That would be interesting....

What's the current rating on the starter button.
 
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