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Discussion Starter #1
The wife and I were in the New England area this past weekend for a wedding and drove out to the FFR showroom in Wareham, MA for a visit.

It's been 13 years since I was there last. Good to see it all again. Everyone was great to deal with and we got the tour as well. Good times!

I took some pictures of the koni GTM in the showroom. For those that weren't aware (it was news to me), the slate gray Koni GTM is the yellow and black one from the cover of the manual (Gen 2). I focused my pictures on the fitment of the doors and hood since that's what I'm currently working on. It was a little enlightening to see some of the details of the car as built by FFR...

If anyone is interested in seeing the pictures I took I can either post them here or send them privately.
 

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Thanks for posting the pics. Its interesting to see their car. I find it funny that there are no windows in the doors. Getting that to fit was the most frustrating part of the build for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The door windows and hood are what I'm working on now in preparation for final body and paint work. 100% agree that it's all a big challenge. That's one of the reasons I wanted to see one of the FFR cars. I just wanted to see what they considered to be good enough.
 

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Thanks for the pics. Very interesting. some of the "errors" on that car are just not good enough in my humble opinion. The front clip fit is atrocious as is the solution in the door jambs, striker bar, and latches. Geez!!!!!
Maybe it because of the body changes and repaints, etc.

Thoughts?


Cheers, Jeff
 

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No Kidding almost getting to the end and finding out your windows only go half way down, Sucks and too late to fix it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I think the thing that surprised me the most was how far off the hood was on either side by the doors. At least the door latch and striker stuff isn't "normally" visible (although I made sure to do a better job on mine so far). I was also surprised (not sure I documented it though) by the installation method on the roof scoop. They basically trimmed the raw panel about 1-2 inches on each side and then ground the roof down so the panel could be set into the roof, rather than onto the surface of it. That's not how I have been envisioning executing it but with the paint scheme it wasn't immediately obvious at first glance...

The other thing that surprised me a little was just how stunning of a car it still was despite the errors. As a builder, I could point out countless problems. My wife, who loves cars and has been around me long enough to know a thing or two about build quality, didn't really notice most of it until I pointed it out.

I didn't take any pictures of the interior, but that was the roughest part of the car for sure. Easy to see why. It's been USED.

I don't want to take anything away from FFR though. Like I said, still a stunning car to 99% of the population. Just goes to show what the right presentation and paint scheme will do for you. Hopefully these pictures will help other builders wondering what "by the manual", "good as you can without much glass work" will get you, as that's the reason I posted them!
 

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Thanks for sharing the pics.

I was a little surprised about the roof scoop as well looking at your pics. I'm kicking around an idea of creating a mold of the roof scoop and front wheel louvers I picked up second hand and doing a full carbon fiber one. I can't tell from the pics if they just carbon fiber skinned it, or if its a vinyl sticker. If I end up making a full carbon fiber one, I'll need to come up with a creative way to install it and not make it look ugly. The only idea I can think of now is to grind down the roof and make a pocket for it to fit into, but then it creates another line in the my roof.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah I'd also be a bit reluctant to grind a pocket in the roof skin. I'm not sure if the one on the koni car actually goes all the way through or if they added material under it or if they just managed to reduce the thickness enough to lay the scoop panel in...
 

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The rear hood interface with the quarter panel looks horrible, but pretty standard. The rest of your pictures look like the car is done pretty well, especially if not a lot of massaging has been done. Please try and remember that these cars are made out of big panels of plastic, and that plastic will change shape slightly over time due to temperature, pressure, and continued curing.

As I have said many times before, if you want perfect gaps and ultra straight panels, then it needs to be metal and have a ton more time put into it than it is worth for this type of kit car.

Please try and keep these cars in perspective. They are not and never will be comparable to an OEM metal body when it comes to fit and finish.

You can get yourself all bent out of shape about it and spend a ton of $$$ to try and make it the way you think it should be, or you can accept it, move on, and not let it keep you from making cars 5 times the cost of your GTM look silly. Up to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
As I said below, I do not intend to bash on FFR or the GTM and I think that car is a stunning car. I 100% agree that it's not OEM and it's not made from stamped steel or aluminum and as a result it won't feasibly be as uniform and straight out of the box. I'm not bent up about it. Still looks great and I'd still be really happy with that car sitting in my garage (how do I know? Because I bought one to build!). Mine sure as hell won't be perfect.

There's also no questioning the performance capabilities of a GTM, regardless of fit and finish on the body panels.

I just thought it might be useful to show what you can end up with WITHOUT a ton of rework. Still pretty damn good.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
 

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I guess I should clarify my reaction to the pics. I, as well as others are aware completely of the GTM's shortcomings. Not all that serious for the cost IMHO. I just thought that the show room example should have been detailed a little better. I don't recall this car looking quite this way at SEMA.
We all just do our best to get our own results. Nuff Said.


Cheers, Jeff
 

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Please try and remember that these cars are made out of big panels of plastic, and that plastic will change shape slightly over time due to temperature, pressure, and continued curing.

As I have said many times before, if you want perfect gaps and ultra straight panels, then it needs to be metal and have a ton more time put into it than it is worth for this type of kit car.

Please try and keep these cars in perspective. They are not and never will be comparable to an OEM metal body when it comes to fit and finish.
You need to hang out with me if you think composites can't be oem quality. OR better yet, go hang out at RCR, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Koenigsegg, or an arms length list of others that can make quality composite parts. You do realize Corvettes are fiberglass right? THE TRUTH IS, FFR's molds are not precise and it yields a less than quality part. (Process of making the body in sections and glassing them together is wrong also, hence all the clay in the parting lines.) My brother has a 30 year old boat that still looks great, made of fiberglass and gelcoat. I know someone who has a blown Willy's coupe in fiberglass that's SUPER STRAIGHT. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE METAL to be show quality. It's also pretty bad when FFR doesn't even install working windows on their demo car. It says a lot. You sure do seem to be working hard to get your racecar straight...
 

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You need to hang out with me if you think composites can't be oem quality. OR better yet, go hang out at RCR, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Koenigsegg, or an arms length list of others that can make quality composite parts. You do realize Corvettes are fiberglass right? THE TRUTH IS, FFR's molds are not precise and it yields a less than quality part. (Process of making the body in sections and glassing them together is wrong also, hence all the clay in the parting lines.) My brother has a 30 year old boat that still looks great, made of fiberglass and gelcoat. I know someone who has a blown Willy's coupe in fiberglass that's SUPER STRAIGHT. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE METAL to be show quality. It's also pretty bad when FFR doesn't even install working windows on their demo car. It says a lot. You sure do seem to be working hard to get your racecar straight...
Again, what is the cost of those "other" cars? We can go into the processes that are used by FFR and quickly find many short comings as far as how those processes, designs, and materials that are used all add up to an unprecise fiberglass part. And again, as I have discussed before, FFR could make body panels that ARE straight, ARE resistant to change over time, and ARE precision as far as fitment. If they did that however, there is no way we would be looking at a sub $40k kit.

I'm making my car the way I want it and not complaining about what FFR offers. I have my needs, such as strength, lightness, and no cost considerations, and FFR has theirs. If I am going through the trouble of making molds, then I am going to do things differently, but that is my choice, and I am not turning out 500 bodies, I'm turning out 5. Big difference in the materials chosen, design of the panels, and ultimately the cost of the end product.

I understand why FFR does what they do as far as body panels are concerned...well in most cases...and I don't complain if I want something different and spend a lot of $$$ to make that happen. Again, the GTM is what you make it. I have no problem with by the book builds, or $150k almost perfect builds, as long as the people spending the $150k aren't complaining that they didn't get a $150k car from FFR for $30k.

If one wants a pretty show car, by all means, go buy one. There are plenty of them out there, but the GTM was never meant to be one.
 

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You need to hang out with me if you think composites can't be oem quality. OR better yet, go hang out at RCR, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani, Koenigsegg, or an arms length list of others that can make quality composite parts. You do realize Corvettes are fiberglass right? THE TRUTH IS, FFR's molds are not precise and it yields a less than quality part. (Process of making the body in sections and glassing them together is wrong also, hence all the clay in the parting lines.) My brother has a 30 year old boat that still looks great, made of fiberglass and gelcoat. I know someone who has a blown Willy's coupe in fiberglass that's SUPER STRAIGHT. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE METAL to be show quality. It's also pretty bad when FFR doesn't even install working windows on their demo car. It says a lot. You sure do seem to be working hard to get your racecar straight...
Carbon,

I get your point, you are not a fan of many aspects of the GTM. I think everyone here has seen you rant and rave over and over and over. We get it, you don't like it, it can be done better if you dump a lot of $$$ into it, and are generally not a fan. Point taken. Can you please move off the topic, its getting rather old?

We are supposed to be a community here that provides support and help for each other in building what ever we want our GTMs to be. Crash races the living crap out of his and is likely the only GTM that is a prototype test bed for many applications. I doubt I will ever race my car that hard and for that long, but its nice to see it beating other supercars on the track, time and time again. Also, Shane builds some of the most beautiful GTMs I have ever seen and has been an absolute pleasure to work with.

Both of these gentleman take the time to help builders like myself answer the questions I have along my build, and most importantly not bashing me over the head when I ask a simple question. Both offer fixes and mods that will improve the overall quality and performance of your GTM. I would doubt there is a single GTM being built these days that doesn't have at least one of their improvements over the stock build on them. They are very reputable, support the community, and therefor earn business and trust.

I understand you offer some upgrades as well, and I personally would like to incorporate your rear hatch glass fix on my GTM. Just my opinion, but if you would still like to offer your items up for sale, and I really hope you do, can you seriously drop bashing the GTM for what it is? You are making comparisons to multiple million dollar cars being perfect, when I am literally building my GTM for 1% the cost of a Pagani-Huayra, and that's a used price on one.

We all understand the GTM has its downfalls and in the end its what you put into it to make it unique. I am happy with my build and my skills, and I'll build it to the best of my ability. In the end, it will be a one of kind build that will blow the doors off most cars on the road and I will be darn proud of my build.
 

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Carbon,

I get your point, you are not a fan of many aspects of the GTM. I think everyone here has seen you rant and rave over and over and over.

I understand you offer some upgrades as well, and I personally would like to incorporate your rear hatch glass fix on my GTM. Just my opinion, but if you would still like to offer your items up for sale, and I really hope you do, can you seriously drop bashing the GTM for what it is?

We all understand the GTM has its downfalls and in the end its what you put into it to make it unique.
First of all I wasn't even talking to you, so I don't see how I'm bashing you over the head with anything. I was replying to Crash saying it has to be metal to be oem worthy which is total B.S. You also don't have to spend a fortune to get it right if you put in a little research and can fix some of the fiberglass work before sending it out to paint. (one of the great things about the forum is the honesty about the issues, you sure aren't going to see that on FFR's web page advertising cad-cam tech and 600 hour build times. And discussing the issues OPENLY, HONESTLY AND OVER AND OVER MAKE BUILDERS AND POTENTIAL BUILDERS AWARE OF THE PITFALLS. I'VE BEEN HERE SINCE 2011 AND HELPED NUMEROUS PEOPLE WITH ADVICE HERE IN THE OPEN FORUM, IN P.M.. AND IN PERSON. I'VE MADE UPGRADE PARTS THAT HELP THE BUILDERS, HOW MUCH OF THAT HAVE YOU DONE?) P.S. Not everyone knows about the "pitfalls" with this car. This thread may be the first time a potential new buyer would hear about it prompting him to do more research. You mentioned the picture of the Pagani I posted. I used that as an example of how nice a mold CAN be. It's in raw carbon fiber, you can't do any bodywork to that and it's straight and symmetrical out of the mold. It's not about money. Do you know there are C5 corvettes out there with very nice fitment quality and they're made with fiberglass and gelcoat. You can get one used for cheap. (IT WAS ONLY 40K NEW) Do you also know there are MILLIONS of small fiberglass boats out there? (straight and symmetrical) Very affordable. They don't have all these symmetry and fitment issues. It has less to do with money and more about doing good work. I'm personally tired of hearing all the excuses that all the fanboys make that are completely illogical. Do you know how many kits are unfinished or sold because of the body issues? If the kit cost 30k to 40k instead of 25k and had a proper body that would be a steal! So sorry I insulted you with the truth, OR IF IT'S GETTING OLD TO YOU! Maybe it'll help a new potential buyer know what he's really looking at when considering this build. That way he can make an educated decision on whether it's right for him. You mention my hatch glass replacement also. Do you know how many guys didn't know about the issues with the stock glass, had the car built by some one that didn't understand the problems either and ended up with a painted car that the glass didn't even fit? That's why I made the kit for Michael Baskins car, that's exactly what happed to him. The reason I offered these upgrades was to help builders out, you can't make any money on something as low volume as this. Ask Crash, this is basically charity work. You're not getting any parts for this thing from me, as of now the molds are destroyed.
 
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