[Trent]

Greetings,
In anticipation of importing my "parts" I just got off the telephone with Sylvain at Transport Canada. He indicated that upper control arms and front coil overs are not acceptable. No suspension parts are available period. In his words "not even a washer or cotter pin"
Trent

 

[CNIDog]

Well, that seems to be the new rule.

Who is going to tell FFR and ask if we can get credit for the parts no longer allowed in? I think we should organize and present the idea to them as a group. Most of us have back-orders.

I think FFR should give us fair discount for the parts they can not ship to us any longer.

Did Sylvain mention any other parts they don't allow? I read that the optional steering rack was not welcome. (no loss)

Ted

 

[CNIDog]

Trent,

What other options do you have on order? We've been a bit focused on what TC doesn't want. Any additional parts they don't have a problem with?

Ted

 

[Trent]

I ordered the 4 link, pipes, chrome roll bar 4 on 4 headers, leather seats, guages, no wiring harness (not allowed) no front or rear control arms, shocks, coilovers... Period! I am hoping to fax the itemized list tomorrow get approval next week and hope to cross on Mar 2nd.
Call me if you want "other" details. (416) 678-0524
Trent

 

[barrhavencobra]

Hey guys.
I just waated to chime in with a couple of suggestions and maybe ideas on how to proceed (only worth 2 cents Cdn as we all live North of the border). They may be helpful, then again they may not but I thought I would raise a couple points. 1st, if you have not made the trek to FFR ...I suggest that you go. IT is a great road trip and they will be happy to show you around. IT will give you a view from their eyes. When I was down there they were shipping I think 14 packages a week ... this may affect their vision on how they view a few packages that are shipped North. Just to be clear I am not saying anything negative about FFR they ahve been incredible to me, better than my local car dealer, with whom I ahve spent a lot more $$$$ ... just wnated to flag to be careful about how to present our issues. 2ndly, commercial importers seem not to be having the same issues as the individuals bringing them in, not sure why this appearance is there but it is what I am seeing. From my experineces, yes it is great to save some $$ and bring it in ourselves, however the $$ spent on using a broker etc. will be lost in all the others bills, once a set of rims are purchased, or and engine rebuild is budgeted in etc.

Just a couple thoughts, I would love at some point to get an annual FFR Canada day, where each summer we could all meet and swap stories etc, maybe an annual event ...

Jim

 

[thebicman]

If you have back orders just send them to another address. Neither T.C. or anyone else in Canada has the right to refuse car parts brought in legally. You pay your taxes and its legal. I just wish someone with enough power and finacial backing could stand up to T.C. It's about time someone at T.C. get investigated for changing the rules whenever they feel like it. You can't let everyone including myself bring in front suspension and then deceide you can't. Maybe its time to get everyones MP involved so we can finally put a stop to T.C. game playing.

 

[thebicman]

[No message]

 

[thebicman]

Originally posted by thebicman:

sorry double posted

 

[Trent]

I love a good battle but IMHO the less attention we bring to this, the better off we will all be. I'm sure we could win this battle, but may eventually lose the war. I think that dealing with government bureaucracies is like dealing with your spouse. It's easier to tiptoe into bed at 3 am after a night out with the boys then it is to turn on the lights and argue with her about your right to go out with your buddies. After 21 years with my wife I have learned that a little creativity and imagination goes a lot further towards me advancing my cause then does a head to head battle. I think the same logic works here.
Just my 2 cents.

Trent

 

[Questor]

The question is this, there have been final lines before, haven't there? A deal was reached that resulted in the Canadian Order list. Then when that turned out wrong, there was a deal made after that deal, and now it is wrong. How do you know that this deal will stand for more than a week?

My conversation with TC netted me this tidbit. They don't want to spend the time dealing with FFR kits. (This is not an exact quote but pretty close.)They are wondering why FFR is bothering to market in Canada when it's so hard for them to get kits in. (Once again, not an exact quote, but close.) Read between the lines here. They are trying to discourage the importation of FFR kits and they are doing a fine job by being inconsistent. I'll bet that a couple more kits get in and then there will be more denials for another reason.

I'm not submitting paperwork again until I hear from an official source what the rules are. I will not take a verbal because they will omly make verbal agreements because they can't be proven.

Laws must be followed and they must be enforced in a consistent manner. We are being pushed around because everyone is so afraid they'll get mad and stop allowing kits in.

Rather than accept godlike powers, why don't we rally some dollars and collectively hire some legal powers to determine, once and for all, what the law truly is?

If my kit was denied, like Sporty seems to think, because I spoke out about what is going on, what kind of person would I be to roll over and whimper to them for forgiveness?

If you read back through a few threads, you will see that everyone who has talked to them has gotten a different story. Each time they give a new bottom line which includes less than the last. Can you really believe the latest bottom line is the end?

Harry Bergeon told me that they don't want to spend the time dealing with these kits. That's the bottom line.

Why don't the commercial importers seem to be having the same problems? Maybe it's because they might just hire some legal help if their business was affected.

Here's a solution. Maybe FFR should pick 3 separate agents in Canada. They could each market 1/3 of a kit to Canadian customers. TC would have no stake in any of the kits because each would be far less than any definition of a car.

TC makes statements that they'd like us to believe they are handcuffed by the law. I'd suggest they are using more zeal to enforce this law than makes sense and they cannot be so incompetent as they have shown over the past months. They are being inconsistent on purpose.

Everyone may now avoid this thread for fear of the "man" finding out you are consorting with a radical.

I don't have a spouse but when I did I didn't figure I could look in a mirror if I was afraid of her. I'm already on their most wanted list so any who want to communicate without fear may do so through PM's. If we got a group together and each kicked in $500, it would be a good start.

I think first that I'm going to try the Minister of Transport and ask him whether his employees should be applying the law in an inconsistent manner to try and discourage trade with an American company. Perhaps the US government might be interested in this type of action against their companies. Maybe we can have an all out battle like we have over softwood lumber? Hehe. Maybe not.

 

[thebicman]

I couldn't agree with you more. The way T.C. treats people its as if your a criminal trying to smuggle weapons into the country. Whether the parts come from the U.S. or Canada or anywhere else, the end result is they are going on the same car.

 

[Nick1]

Questor, I understand your point of view and I know it really sucks, I really support this cause but the way I see it TC is not our enemy, they are our friends,

the reason TC cracked down is because some where trying to play it smart by illegally importing kits cars from other makes, or even worse falsely declaring the value of the parts in order to save on taxes. Both of witch are a federal offence that can lead to jail time or a big fine, (ie false declaration to a federal officer)

People where exploiting the loop hole in the law and they got caught (quite a few cases some I know personally), Now someone at TC noticed and they where not happy.

In the Canadian motor vehicule law it is very clear : NO KIT CAR ALLOWED that is less than 15 years old, But we are allowed to import car parts and frames and body etc.... just no kit car, That law has been in effect since before 1992, they just started to impose it to FFR customers last summer,

For years, they allowed the FFR to go through as car parts, like when mine was imported in 2001, there where no problems, you paid the taxes and that was it. But back then you had maybe 3 or 4 kits a year, Nowadays it's 30 to 40 kits a year and with some people to con the system, and add to that the kit car manufacturer that are trying to be imported,

TC didn’t have a choice and they used the power invested in them by the law to establish the rules to protect the public. They have complete authority over all aspect of motor vehicles in this country but I don’t think they have the power to ban, so they can’t ban FFR but they can make it hard to import.

TC is really doing a lot of gymnastic for us to be able to import these cars legally into Canada considering they are illegal to import in the first place. I’m pretty sure that a FFR without any suspension parts is only car parts, so this is where the line is and I doubt it will change. The way I see it is that there just doing there jobs, and they are responsible for allowing these cars into Canada.

If you send a letter, don’t ask the minister to check his employees because hitting people on the head doesn’t really work. The way I see it is that we need to work with TC and not against them.

I would ask the minister to use his discretionary power to legalize the FFR for import into Canada. If we work with them we will get what we want

Hopes this help,

Nick

 

[CNIDog]

Everyone's getting the same treatment from TC at this time. The fun started last summer when some orders got bounced but, the reasons weren't made clear. First it was coil-overs then it became all suspension parts

I brought mine in Sept through Cobramotorsports (Bob Wheaton) who is a FFR volume buyer. I don't know about Al Beix but, we had the same issues you guys have.

We had the same problems with suspension parts being turned down. Both of our submissions, Oct and January to TC were denied but, by a fluke we got an approval letter on the second.

I agree that we need some clarity from TC first. Their letter from the fall stated some of the reasons that there are issues with some of the parts but, it does not set a firm line we can use for what's allowed in and what not. Maybe that's where someone's MP could help.

Anyone have a MP who's got a clue?

Ted

 

[Questor]

Originally posted by Canuck Cobra:


the reason TC cracked down is because some where trying to play it smart by illegally importing kits cars from other makes, or even worse falsely declaring the value of the parts in order to save on taxes. Both of witch are a federal offence that can lead to jail time or a big fine, (ie false declaration to a federal officer)If that's the case, why didn't they punish the people who were at fault instead of tarring everyone as a criminal or a liar

People where exploiting the loop hole in the law and they got caught (quite a few cases some I know personally), Now someone at TC noticed and they where not happy. So they had a knee-jerk reaction and punished everyone. We're back to nursery school

In the Canadian motor vehicule law it is very clear : NO KIT CAR ALLOWED that is less than 15 years old, I read this too but what is a kit car? The decision that these kits are a "car" is arbitrary. If you look at the same document, it talks about a vehicle and there is no way one of these kits can meet the standard of being a vehicle. But we are allowed to import car parts and frames and body etc.... just no kit car, That law has been in effect since before 1992, they just started to impose it to FFR customers last summer,


TC didn’t have a choice and they used the power invested in them by the law to establish the rules to protect the public. They have complete authority over all aspect of motor vehicles in this country but I don’t think they have the power to ban, so they can’t ban FFR but they can make it hard to import.

TC is really doing a lot of gymnastic for us to be able to import these cars legally into Canada considering they are illegal to import in the first place. I’m pretty sure that a FFR without any suspension parts is only car parts, so this is where the line is and I doubt it will change. In light of the number of different stories we've been given recently, I just don't see where you conclude that it is clear now

If you send a letter, don’t ask the minister to check his employees because hitting people on the head doesn’t really work. Really? I'm a public employee and I'll tell you that when a message comes down from above, it bloody well works: And quickly!

I would ask the minister to use his discretionary power to legalize the FFR for import into Canada. I certainly agree that this is where it should go. Their efforts only provide for safety if they stop an unsafe car from being built. What they are doing has a zero effect as to whether unsafe cars are built. If they consider hame built cars unsafe, they should ban they regardless of the origin of the bits and pieces. If they don't do that, they are not addressing safety, they are addressing their work load.

Hopes this help,

Nick [/QB]

 

[Nick1]

Questor I agree with you this is a big step backward,

They did punish those that they caugth, but they know that for everyone they catch 4 or 5 got through illegally,

As for the what is a kit car : it's been debated here before, The FFR is a kit car or component car, they actually advertise it as a kit car for the last 10 years,

I just don't see where you conclude that it is clear now

= No suspension parts, No fuel system parts, no gauges, if that's the case it's legal, if not: it's not legal. It’s clear to me,

You’re rigth on safety issue it’s kinda nuts that they try to impose safety guidelines on an unassembled car… but they can’t stop you from building modifying a car but they can tell you what part you can’t use.

they should ban they regardless of the origin of the bits and pieces.

They can't ban because the power to regulate doesn't give you the power to ban, But on the other hand they could ban them and later wait to get that decision challengened in court and after 10 years of court procedings the suprême court will say that it was illegal to ban them…

You can figth this if you believe your rigths where violated but you will need a lawyer in administrative law. Any decision can be challenged but it will cost $$$.

Even then, I’m not sure a juge can help us here, TC has a very wide powers and the only real option for challenge would be that they went outside of their juristiction (ie banning)

An MP will only be able to see the inside of the problem, the real person that can help us is the minister of transports, he could declare the FFr but then again he could get a lot of flak from other kit manufacturer.

The whole problem comes back to having the FFR certified by the US DOT and canadian DOT and using SAE approved materials, If that would be the case we would not be discussing this now,

Like I said before I'm with you on this issue but we need to figth at the proper place

Nick

[ February 18, 2005, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Canuck Cobra ]

 

[Questor]

Originally posted by Canuck Cobra:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I just don't see where you conclude that it is clear now

= No suspension parts, No fuel system parts, no gauges, if that's the case it's legal, if not: it's not legal. It’s clear to me,
My point here was they made it clear to FFR twice and then to others. Each time what was made clear then became wrong. What makes you believe that it is clear now? Is there a guarantee that, following the guidleine you just laid out, a kit will be approver? No! The could just as easily decide something else offends them.

BTW. When did the gauges get outlawed? As of Wednesday, Harry Bergeon didn't say the gauges were a problem. It's good to see clarity in their decisions. Had I removed ALL suspension parts and resubmitted, I'd have gotten stopped on the gauges. What's next?

My conversation, with Harry Bergeon, netted me what makes more sense than anything else I have heard. They don't want to spend the time approving the kits(He said this) so they are trying to discourage their importation. An easy way to accomplish this is to piss everyone off so they won't bother. That's what they seem to be accomplishing.


Nick </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Nick1]

That's very possible questor and if that is the case their plan it is working,


Nick

 

[Rod]

TC have also been checking on Canadian kit builders and replica assemblers. Two I know of have stopped advertising, basially gone underground and will only build on confirmed orders to avoid TC scrutiny. Its strange however TC is only picking on the kit cars and not street rods. I was talking to a guy who builds, restores and sells 8-10 street rods a year and he has never had any queeries from TC. I guess there is a difference between a street rod and a Cobra kit but it seems pretty gray to me.

 

[Nick1]

Rod that's very true, over here pigeon motorsport has been visited by TC.... everyone that sells cobra is in their sights

Maybe they don't see the street rods as "kit" but as modified cars...


Nick

 

[cwood]

What does "visited" and "checking in" mean?