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there was a time not too long ago when that was the only way to register our cars..then came SB100. only because a politican ran into the same problem so he made a bill so he could register his superformance.........mike
 

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Rapscallion
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I don't think it's fair to come down on Titles Unlimited. They performed a legal service to many people, not only kitcars. The peoples republic of california is pissed because some tried to circumvent paying the proper tax amount. AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!

Now as far as I'm concerned I cannot see where TU has done anything wrong. Isn't it the person who tried to title the car in CA the perp?

Think it out,
Roscoe
 

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Roscoe-

TU new from the beginning that they were circumventing the law. Many, if not all, first time owners who used TU to register their cars new this as well. It's the subsequent owners who are getting the bad rap and have to pay taxes and penalties.

I have two friends who recently went though this very nightamre. Luckily, both have been able to recitify their registration nightmares with the help from the Sacramento DMV.

The CA DMV has reserved 100 SB100 numbers for these people in 2004

2FAST
 

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CA is torqued because some owners used TU to wash the title and state a lower value. So the the state lost a bunch of money in taxes. Apparently, it's too much trouble to go to each owner and collect the appropriate taxes from those who actually commited the "crime". So they are suing TU for a lump sum. Typical of CA gov't; the individual is never responsible for their own actions. I don't know how you guys tolerate all that BS.
 

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I looked at TU when I first order my kit. It does not take a rocket scientist to determine that TU's business is intended to defraud any State's DMV, and future unknowing buyers of such a car. The fact is that the user of TU and TU itself are preparing sales documents and vehicle titles (and giving you specific instructions as to what not to tell the DMV), which document in writing transactions which never happened, the purpose of which is the make local DMV's and buyers believe the papers and the paper trail are true. I am not a lawyer, but that sure seems to exactly fit the definition of Fraud?

Saving money on taxes is always a good idea, but committing obvious Fraud is just stupid just to try and save a few hundred bucks! I don't see what this has to do with California, other state have take similar actions.
 

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IS GOING THROUGH TU OK IF YOUR NOT LYING ABOUT PURCHASE PRICE OF CAR? SOMEONE SAID ONCE THAT YOU CAN BUY A 1965 FORD AND USE THE VIN TAG IN YOUR CAR TO REG AS A 65 FORD IS THIS THE WAY TO GO? I KNOW HERE IN NY ITS A PITA TO REG THESE CARS AND AM DREADING THIS PART.
 

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Some states will allow you register a kit car as the year it emulates, and some don't. There can be advantages to that, specifically in tax savings, smog inspections and registration costs. My '66 Mustang gets registered every 5 years as a collector vehicle, and never needs a smog inspection. It would be nice if I could register my FFR the same way.

Georgia has some pretty loose laws regarding vehicle titling and registration. Companies like TU took advantage of these loopholes, and allowed you wash the title, and get a vehicle titled in almost any year you wanted. Your FFR can be titled and registered as a '65 Cobra in the state of GA as if you purchased it there. Even if the vehicle has never left the state of CA. What a boon for states like NY, MA, CA, etc.

Here's how it works. When you fill out the forms for TU, you place the value of the vehicle, not TU. They simply place the info on the title that you give them. The fraud, then, starts with you. You - the owner - now take the papers they give you - that contains the information you provided - down to the DMV. Your goal is to get a new title from your state (CA?), and register the vehicle as titled. At that time, you are bringing a new vehicle in to the state for the first time.

The DMV asks you what the value of the vehicle is. Again, this is information you provide. Nobody inspects the vehicle, and nobody else places a value on the vehicle. You are now taxed on the value that you declare.

So, through all this, you are the one that states the value of the vehicle at each and every step. So if fraud is committed, who is at fault? Why is it TU? Why isn't it the owner who lied? Why isn't it the state of CA for accepting the value as stated? If you're going to lay blame somewhere, it should be with the person/group/company who committed the "crime". We should all be responsible for our own actions. But, this is America, so we are not.

CA is going after TU for a couple of reasons. They have deep enough pockets to cover CA's losses, without having to go through the bother of tracking down the "criminals". Sort of like suing Remington for a store robbery. And they want to close this loop hole so other car owners (you) can't take advantage of the loophole.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 

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Wildcat,
While a PITA, it is possible to register the car in NY without too much hassle.
You are not alone, and others within NY have done it. The NYS DMV website has a section on "specialty contructed vehicles". Start there and request their information packet. Then start searching this web site for more info. You can also ask others here that have NY in their "From" section of their signature.

SOMEONE SAID ONCE THAT YOU CAN BUY A 1965 FORD AND USE THE VIN TAG IN YOUR CAR TO REG AS A 65 FORD IS THIS THE WAY TO GO?
ANSWER: NO! That someone didn't know what he was talking about as this is illegal!
 

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If you believe TU isn't committing Fraud, along with owner of the Cobra, can you honestly answer any of these questions YES? Did they actually purchased the car from you, and you bought it back? Did any money for the car's purchase or buyback actually ever change hands? Did the car ever reside in Alabama, or any other state they may claim? Did you send them documents with material information intentionally left off per their instructions (like dates and prices) and they accepted them, then altered them by adding in the information? Did any type of "arms length" transaction ever take place between the two of you regarding this car other than you paying them for the titling service?

Obviously the answer to all of the above questions is NO. So how can anyone claim this is not fraud by everyone involved. Isn't the intent of using a company such as Titles Unlimited to defraud the state our of money? You know the documents you sent them were false, and they know it too. You also know the documents they send you are fraudulant.

Looked at another way, if you were an innocent purchaser of a vehicle involved in above, and your local DMV later denied you a title, wouldn't you be inclined to want to sue everyone for fraud?

I guess if people want to pretend this isn't fraud, they can. But it don't change the facts.
 

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Dollars to donuts this is going to end up being about a lot of worse things than what year a Cobra replica is titled as.

News articles back at the time said that TU had titled around 40,000 cars. (!!) Er, wanna set up a scheme to get "washed", transferable titles on stolen cars? Make the scheme look, um, a lot like TU's setup.

Y'all get my drift. This ain't about us Cobra gearheads, we're just a side annoyance along the way while a much, much bigger story -- and case -- develops.

AJ
 

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Hey Bob, isn't Colorado the state where someone (like a bus transportation company)can cause an accident, total my $300,000 motorhome, cripple and permanently disable all the occupants, etc., and not be liable for more than a total of $250,000? Now, if that bus had been a rebuilt salvage and then titled through TU, would I be totally out of line here if I wanted to sue TU, as well as the bus company?

Bob, don't take any of this personally, as it is not directed at you. Everyone views these issues differently.
 

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Bob, FYI, in California, you have to present a bill of sale from either the individual or the dealer showing how much you paid for the car, and you have to sign stating it is true. In the case of the Cobra, you have to show your receipts for what you purchased that you have not paid California sales tax for. In the case of TU, their documents don't show what you paid them or anyone, they just show what you put on the documents.

[ December 30, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Bill32 ]
 

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Don't worry Bill, I won't take anything like this personally. But bake a look at what TU has done. They made a business out of exploiting a legal loophole. Have they done anything Shady? Maybe. Illegal? No, I don't think so. As I understand it, they are following the laws of GA.

In many states when you buy a used vehicle, you write on the back of the title how much you paid for it. CO does this, and NY used to. You can write anything you want, and nobody checks. Is it fraud if you write in a lower amount? Probably. But folks do it all the time to save tax money.

Ultimatly, I think it's the responsibility of the owner to be honest. TU is being honest by following the laws of GA. How you use their service is your responsibility, not theirs. Just like buying a gun or a six pack of Bud.

As far as tort claims go, the 250K limit in CO is for non-tangible claims, usually listed as "Pain and Suffering". The monetary awards in civil suits usually cover tangible assets and losses, like medical bills, the $300,000 motor home, and lost wages. But you can't get $5 million for pain and suffering when you burn your leg on hot coffee.

These tort reforms are a step in the right direction. Americans have become lawsuit happy. There's an excellent article in this month's NewsWeek about this, and how civil suits are getting out of hand. That's one of the many reasons I live in CO.
 

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TU didn't break the law, the owners who lied and signed their name to that lie on paper did. THAT SIMPLE. CA is just too damn lazy to go after the real guilty parties. Hell TU didn't do anything in CA anyway.
 

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Trust me when I say this, Titles Unlimited provided a service that was ILLEGAL in most states. No ifs, ands or buts about it. And it isn't just California. It just so happens that California is the biggest state and the first to jump on the bandwagon. Are the owners guilty too of trying to get around the law? Sure. But Titles Unlimited had to be fully aware of the situation. Do they provide a legitimate service if there really was an abandoned car that really did loose its' title? Perhaps. But most of their business came from those seeking to "wash" their titles. How did they stay in business? Alabama is a state that does not have such strict laws about title washing, so they can legally do business there. SB100 is not the sole cause of this and will not be the sole scope of the investigation either.

Steve
 

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Howdy Everybody,

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!

Anyway, as I've stated before, I'm just a hillbilly farm boy, and I can remember my grandmother cooking on a wood burning cook stove (true story...w/ a $60,000.00 tractor parked in the barn :D ).

Gee, lets see, if you try to title a stolen car in Arkansas a man in a ASP uniform and a BIG pistol will take you to jail. Maybe not in all states, but here they will. So TU titles are NOT anygood for titling stolen cars.

I have the info from TU in my hand right now ( guess whats in my other hand? :eek: ). I you count down to word # 156 it say "We do not process any fraudulent transactions." Gee, that sounds pretty simple to me, the hillbilly farm boy! On the form that you fill out from TU, you have to sign a statement stating that you are NOT trying to do anything illegal. Once again, pretty simple. It also says that the vehicle must be "legitimately owned" by you. Pretty simple. It also states that you will "indemnify PVS & TU, INC.....from any liability or loss arising from my misstatement of any fact herein." Gee, once again, pretty simple.

I just don't see what TU is doing illegal if somebody has a '65 Ford convertable and needs a title for it and uses TU services. If the person that lives in CA has, say a Superformance and gets a title from TU by telling them its a '65 Ford convertable so he can break CA's smog laws and break CA's auto taxs laws, I still don't see where TU did anything illegal. Just the guy who LIED/COMMITTED FRAUD to TU and the state of CA.

Half the problems in this country is from not making people responsible for there actions. Like Enron, WorldCom, Silverado Savings & Loan (pres. Bush's little brother Neil), major drug trafficers (yea I know, they own legit multi-million dollar companies, make donations to the right people, etc.), and the freakin list goes on! :mad: :mad:

Just my $.02 from a hillbilly farm boy.

Paul
 

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Paul,

Must just be us country folk that understand things. I may live in Annapolis now, but I spent the first half of my life in rural Delaware. Learned to drive on a tractor before I was old enough to drive a car. Personal responsibility is a thing of the past these days, and THAT's the problem. I contacted TU, and they specifically stated that they didn't do kit cars. I would've had to lie about what kind of car it was, AND lie about the VIN number. I decided that I was not willing to do that and went the official route.
 

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Rapscallion
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Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Much like trying to sue Smith & Wesson for an armed robbery comitted by Shabazz.

I'll say it again: Follow the money!

Roscoe
 
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