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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well, I am in the process of installing my new starter and having an issue. I am sure I have the correct starter, but it will not engage the flywheel. They look 100% identical, same drive gear, same shaft throw distance. I hooked up the solenoid only to 12v and it does throw the gear in and out. While installing and attempting to start, I would hear the gear spinning and contacting the flywheel but the flywheel would not engage. I removed the starter and saw scuff Mark's on the front face of the flywheel teeth. Is it possible that the solenoid could be engaging too late after the starter gear is already spinning? It seems to me that is what is happening, judging by the noise and the Mark's on the face of the flywheel teeth. Thanks for any advice/opinions!!-- Mike
 

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I know you specifically said they are the same, but I have heard, read, etc that the nose length for auto trans vs manual starters are different length. Do not know if this is what you have going on, but a cheap check.
good luck,
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Both are exactly the same. Just bench tested both and the function the same also. Can't figure out why old one engages and the new one does not. Mounted in the same holes, and the gears are identical.
 

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They look the same in the pic, but measure from the mounting face to the longest point on the nose.
If that is the same, that addresses what I referred too.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Every measurement is exactly the same. I think I have s bad new starter. It is now engaging, but not spinning the flywheel. I think the noise I was hearing was actually from the gear reduction in the starter itself.
 

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Your old starter went up in smoke and the new one ground off the reduction gears. I would be trying to turn the engine by hand before installing another starter. Is it possible your engine/flywheel/clutch is jammed somehow? Could your engine be hydraulically locked?

Good Luck

Norm
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Norm... I purchased two new starters for a 1993 Gt and neither one would engage and turn the flywheel. I don't think they were labeled as "high torque" if that makes a difference. Both were identical looking to the original starter with the same mounting bolt pattern and same throw on the drive gear. I took the old starter apart, cleaned it up, reassembled, reinstalled it and the car fired right up. For the life of me, I still can't figure out why the two new starters would engage but not turn the flywheel. Could it be possible that they are just not providing enough torque? Should I try again after pulling the plugs just to see if the flywheel will turn without compression?
 

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Maybe a high resistance connection resulting in low current

I would suspect the wiring at this point.
Maybe too much resistance in the power and ground cables?
Is the power cable wired through the fender mounted solenoid and then to the starter?
If so you can move the power cable direct the starter (and jumper up to the solenoid junction to power it and everything else) and just engage the starter mounted solenoid with the fender mounted solenoid. Also the starter needs a good connection to ground. Painted or powdercoated bellhousing and midplate can impede this. Maybe add a cable from under the starter bolt to frame if not already directed connected to the battery.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Mark... I have a huge 1/0 cable from the battery directly to the starter with the solenoid powered off the the fender mounted relay. I also have a #2ga ground wire from the battery to one starter mounting bolt and a #6ga from the frame to the second starter mounting bolt. This is all being operated by a fully charged Optima RedTop. Power and ground are definitely not issues. As stated, the starters are all physically identical. The original one is reinstalled and working and the other two have given me problems. I Appreciate your input/suggestions. Tomorrow is another day!
 

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wrong engine

Quote: " I purchased two new starters for a 1993 Gt"

What did a '93 GT come with for an engine choice? Your 408 is based on a 351 engine, completely different beast then the 302 (5.0).

Have you tried a 351 starter from a later year?

Also, seeing that you have a "stroker" engine, any chance the flywheel is something "custom" to zero balance or change the balance to match your engine?

Just thinkin' out side the box Mike, trying to help . . .

Doc :beerchug:
 

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In addition to Docs’ comment above, if the new starters were remanufactured units, I would look for the word CHINA stamped somewhere on the product. They are known for using heavier gauge wire in the rebuild process. Lessens cost but at the price of reduced torque from the starter. Probably would work fine on a slightly tired 93 Mustang GT but, not so well on a high compression 408.

Norm
 

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From Out There...

I'm likely off the mark, but it appears that the starter gear on the new one has a longer travel distance. If the linkage is set up for that, the gear may be hitting the flywheel before the electrical contact to give it power is fully engaged. Then again, Big Blocker probably has the right take on the situation.

Regards, Rick.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ok..so here is the update...
I purchased the 2 new starters and neither would engage the flywheel. All three seemed identical. They were a very tight fit into the motor plate. I have now come to find that not only as I knew are the 2 different starters one for a 3/8" drive gear and one that extends 3/4") but these starters also require a different size mounting opening. The 3/8" starter which I have is for a larger hole and normally for a 164 tooth flywheel. The 3/4" starter requires a smaller hole and is normally for a 157 tooth flywheel. Soooooo damn confusing!
So what I have are starters that are correct (3/8" pinion) for my flywheel, but in correct for the hole in my motor plate. I believe I have 3 options.

#1 expand the hole in the motor plate

#2 get a new 164 tooth flywheel and move the starter to the 164 tooth position on the motor plate.

#3 use a 3/4" starter in the current hole with a 3/8" spacer between the motor plate and starter.

If you are confused... here is the info...

To put it briefly, I have a 3/8" pinion depth gear starter and a 157 tooth flywheel. Not the correct combo.
 

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I guess I'm confused too. If the original starter works why do we need a new one?? That being said, I would think you should be able to find a starter like the one that does work, or get with some one like Mike Forte and get a mini that goes with your combination. Just my $.02
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Replacing it because it's 18yrs old and experiencing sporadic heat sink issues. I will call Mike. He provided me with my drivetrain in 2001. Thanks!!--Mike
 

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I don't understand? You said the starters are exactly the same, but looking at the pictures they are not. You bought starter for a 93 Mustang GT which is a 5.0 engine, yet you have a 351 based engine. I think you just need to get the correct starter, yes?
 

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- or -

4th option:

Since you know your original starter worked perfectly, send it out to a motor shop and have it rewound as a high torque starter . . .

That was a very old school answer, sorry.

FWIW, I used to send 12V starters out and have them rewound for 8V so they would spin a high compression (13:1) engine.

The fact that your engine is High Torque should have nothing to do with cranking it over. High Torque and High Compression are two different animals.

Doc :beerchug:
 

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Another thought

The pinion gear on the starter motor has a different tooth count (off by 1) for the 157 tooth vs the 164 tooth flywheel. I purchased a partially completed car with an aluminum 427 from Smeding performance, based on a 351 Dart block, and it had gone through two starters just in the first 500 miles of driving. When I went to buy the 3rd starter, I called Smeding performance to see what model they had installed when the engine was built. The one on the car did not match that P/N. So the second starter put on was wrong pinion gear. Ended up ordering a hi Torque gear reduction starter in the end designed for the 351 block with a 157 tooth flywheel. Powermaster PWM - 9503; $229.97 from "Summit Racing".

HTH,
Dave
 

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I think there are still a number of things it could be, but I know it's got nothing to do with being a 351 vs 302 block. I have been running a rebuilt 1995 Mustang GT (manual trans) starter on my 351 stroker for more than 10 years now. I am only using a little model 51 size battery (Breeze front mount) to start it too, it has never given me a moments hesitation despite the nearly 10:1 compression ratio etc. I think the 93-95 OEM Ford PMGR 'mini' starter is the same bolt-in standard as earlier types but it must be matched for your flywheel tooth count. A manual trans 93-95 Mustang uses a 157 tooth flywheel. I'm not saying I know what your problem is, I just don't want you to go down a dead-end road trying to find a 351 vs 302 starter when there shouldn't be any difference in this application.

Sean
 
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