[RainyZ]

Hello all! I have known of Factory Five for a few years now but am now more interested in what they have to offer. So a quick background story before we begin.

My wife and I are looking to turn my intrest of Datsun to FF. Currently we are living in Okinawa Japan and have a little over a year and a half left. Once our time is up here we would come back to the states and start a build.

My goal for my build is a base model GTM that is used for occasional driving, a few track days a year, and car shows for fun... yes i know it's ludicrous! I have read a lot of members on here scoff (not a bad thing) at the idea of base model builds but i think i can do it. I have read many posts about money saving and have been taking endless notes. As well I just started talking to a member about how to accomplish a penny pinching 35-45k build.

So i have been looking online and occasionally find a dealership selling a C5 for about 7K. I figure with some good tire kicking and cash I could drive away with the donor for 6K. I would then strip apart the car and sell everything i don't need. That includes taking anything metal that doesn't sell to the scrap yard.

Then comes purchasing the kit. I am torn between buying a second hand kit or buying new. I know buying used would be cheaper but i'm worried things would be missing or not put together correctly. But it's a gamble I may have to take. What do you all think of this?

I then plan on doing everything myself or with the help of friends.... except for the body work... I have a friend back home in Seattle who works at a body shop who could do the work for dirt cheap. However I'll be living wherever the Marine Corps sends me next, so that option might not work out. If it doesn't I would pay to have the body fitted. I am confident enough in my painting ability that i could paint it myself. Cool thing about military bases is that a lot of them have paint booths at the hobby shops so that cuts the cost of paying a painter. So how much roughly would you think fitting the body to the frame and any modifications would cost? I've read this is one the most expensive parts.

From there what is really needed for this car? I'm thinking the only upgrade I would want to start with is vents and scoops to keep the engine cool, but what have people found works best?

Thank you for reading this very long first post. I know this type of thing is asked a lot, however I feel talking to people helps my thought process. I'm open to any type of comments that you want to leave. Have a great day!

V/R

RainyZ

 

[edwardb]

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your service. I'm not a GTM guy, so can't give many specifics there. I have built two Roadsters, so pretty familiar with FFR and this end of the kit car hobby. The GTM is an amazing car, but is considered the most complex build of all their models. I assume you've examined this and are up for it. Your budget is certainly at the low end of what I've seen for GTM's. As a lowly Roadster builder/owner, I get sticker shock at some of the GTM components like transaxle, exhaust system, body/paint costs, etc. But again assume you've done your homework and won't be surprised. My main comment is new vs. used. There are used deals out there occasionally, and yes that's an opportunity to save money. Maybe. But honestly, they don't happen all that often. Especially with the GTM because there are so many fewer than other FFR models. You could be looking for a long time before you find the right deal. I agree with your concern about someone else's build quality as well. Some are amazing. Some not as much. Personally I would prepare a budget around a new build, and between now and when you're ready to buy watch for used ones. But be prepared to buy new. That's probably going to be the outcome.

 

[mikeinatlanta]

Welcome and thank you. RE new vs used kit: One significant advantage of a new kit is that it will incorporate the latest changes from FFR. Generally speaking, when FFR makes a change it's something worth having. Prior to deciding on an older kit, I suggest researching exactly what has changed from the beginning and when so that you can decide which ones are necessary and the costs involved in incorporating them into an older chassis.

For example: I have a MKII roadster. While I have done many mods and would not take a MKIV in trade, I would also not buy another MKII. If you count labor, I have spent many thousands doing what the MKIV now comes with standard.

 

[RainyZ]

Thanks for your reply. I have to agree that it is a lower than average budget and it may not pan out, however I feel it's a good starting point for just getting the car put together and drivable. There's always later down the road for upgrades! Scrolling through the forums you are very right, the used kits dont come around very often. Maybe if i'm lucky a good deal will pop up if not im willing to buy into a new kit. At least then I would know everything is there. Everything you have said will go into consideration, especially planning a budget around a new kit.

Mikeinatlanta you bring up a very valid point. I've been trying to find the differences from the older kits and newer ones for a few days now. So far people have said the body looks nicer but I am more concerned with the body fitment issues which was one of the things i was able to find. I especially need to find out if the door window issues are still present in the newer model.

It's always interesting how people are willing to spend the money on something they love but would never trade it and given the chance they wouldn't go through it again. I know from restoring my 280Z...

 

[Shane]

As for "improvements" between the Gen I and Gen II GTM's, IMO, there's really only one thing that has been improved, and that is the ability to get more caster in the front suspension. All of the bodywork issues that exist with the Gen I are still the exact same issues with the Gen II......and I will take Gen I doors over Gen II doors every day of the week. Not sure what they were thinking on the Gen II doors, but whatever it was, it wasn't good. They took a difficult situation and compounded it x10.

 

[carbon fiber]

I'd go for a used kit if you can find one. It's 25k new. The Gen II has revised mounting points for the front control arms and that's about it chassis wise. The Gen II body revisions don't fix the problems the Gen I had. (doors/hatch/etc.) I'd at least upgrade the door/body and door/window seals even on a budget build. The stuff that comes with the kit is ill-fitting and cheap looking. The good thing is you're not in a hurry so you can take your time finding deals. (Shane, you beat me to the punch while I was typing!)

 

[dukegrad98]

In the price range you mention, or just a couple grand more, you can buy a nice completed car -- for less than a base build would probably cost you in parts and paint alone. I like a lot of things about the GTM, but resale values that I have seen are very weak. Perhaps it is the build experience you are after; just realize that you will have to find value in that fun, because (especially in a very basic build) the value will not be there upon sale.

Did Erik ever figure out how to make the Boxster/Cayman transaxles work with these cars? I remember that being discussed heavily a long time ago as an alternative to the G50 type boxes, but don't remember whether it was ever accomplished. Seemed like a great idea for lower-power builds, and a place to save on one of the most expensive parts of the build.

Cheers, John

 

[AGH]

A word from a fellow Datsun fan

Check out my build site AGHCars.com - Welcome and check out my 280. If I had to keep one sports car it would be the Z, very economical and fun. I get almost as many thumbs up in the 280Z as I do in the Roadster. Its because a lot of folks had them back in the day and wish they still did!!

As far as the GTM goes your looking at a different animal and in my opinion it would be very difficult to build for that budget but maybe if you were lucky enough to score an abandoned kit with most of the parts, cheap.

Be careful when you talk cheap bodywork. The bodywork required on a GTM is not your typical primer-blocksand-paint. To get things to fit properly requires SERIOUS Fiberglass work and if you don't do that yourself you could spend serious money because of the shear hours involved.

I would take a hard look at perhaps a Roadster or a Coupe as they are great projects that would be much easier to build maintaining a budget.

Aaron
GTM #403

 

[txbuilder]

In the price range you mention, or just a couple grand more, you can buy a nice completed car -- for less than a base build would probably cost you in parts and paint alone. I like a lot of things about the GTM, but resale values that I have seen are very weak. Perhaps it is the build experience you are after; just realize that you will have to find value in that fun, because (especially in a very basic build) the value will not be there upon sale.

Did Erik ever figure out how to make the Boxster/Cayman transaxles work with these cars? I remember that being discussed heavily a long time ago as an alternative to the G50 type boxes, but don't remember whether it was ever accomplished. Seemed like a great idea for lower-power builds, and a place to save on one of the most expensive parts of the build.

Cheers, John

You can use either the 996 transmission. which has to be inverted, or the Cayman which does not. However you will have to make chassis mods for the transmission mounts. I make the adapters for either transmission. You will also need a different shifter than the one used with the G50.

 

[crash]

A word from a fellow Datsun fan

Be careful when you talk cheap bodywork. The bodywork required on a GTM is not your typical primer-blocksand-paint. To get things to fit properly requires SERIOUS Fiberglass work and if you don't do that yourself you could spend serious money because of the shear hours involved.

I would take a hard look at perhaps a Roadster or a Coupe as they are great projects that would be much easier to build maintaining a budget.

Aaron
GTM #403

I know people that have done their own bodywork and done a "by the book" build and it turned out fine. Was it supercar, nats ass perfect? No. Was it a beautiful car that they put over 10,000 miles on and sold for just about what they spent to build it? Yep.

As far as alternatives, the 818 is probably now the best bang for the buck of any of the FFR models. As they are right now molding the 818C, the hardtop coupe model, there will be even more 818 options available in the next few months.

 

[RainyZ]

As for "improvements" between the Gen I and Gen II GTM's, IMO, there's really only one thing that has been improved, and that is the ability to get more caster in the front suspension. All of the bodywork issues that exist with the Gen I are still the exact same issues with the Gen II......and I will take Gen I doors over Gen II doors every day of the week. Not sure what they were thinking on the Gen II doors, but whatever it was, it wasn't good. They took a difficult situation and compounded it x10.

That is a shame to hear. Adding almost 5K to the price tag after doing no major improvements to things people openly said needed fixing sounds like a few steps in the wrong direction for their company.

I'd go for a used kit if you can find one. It's 25k new. The Gen II has revised mounting points for the front control arms and that's about it chassis wise. The Gen II body revisions don't fix the problems the Gen I had. (doors/hatch/etc.) I'd at least upgrade the door/body and door/window seals even on a budget build. The stuff that comes with the kit is ill-fitting and cheap looking. The good thing is you're not in a hurry so you can take your time finding deals. (Shane, you beat me to the punch while I was typing!)

I like to say that i have nothing but time right now. I would like to find a great deal and try to work something out but I don't have my hopes set to high for that. I will be putting what you said down into my possible upgrades list.

In the price range you mention, or just a couple grand more, you can buy a nice completed car -- for less than a base build would probably cost you in parts and paint alone. I like a lot of things about the GTM, but resale values that I have seen are very weak. Perhaps it is the build experience you are after; just realize that you will have to find value in that fun, because (especially in a very basic build) the value will not be there upon sale.

Did Erik ever figure out how to make the Boxster/Cayman transaxles work with these cars? I remember that being discussed heavily a long time ago as an alternative to the G50 type boxes, but don't remember whether it was ever accomplished. Seemed like a great idea for lower-power builds, and a place to save on one of the most expensive parts of the build.

Cheers, John

I haven't seen a GTM in this price range yet, so I will keep my eyes open. I think the hardest thing for me would be accepting that maybe I should buy a good complete GTM. I would really love to be able to say "why yes I did make this supercar". So maybe I will buy a complete GTM if the price is right. Then buy a second one to make!

A word from a fellow Datsun fan

Check out my build site AGHCars.com - Welcome and check out my 280. If I had to keep one sports car it would be the Z, very economical and fun. I get almost as many thumbs up in the 280Z as I do in the Roadster. Its because a lot of folks had them back in the day and wish they still did!!

As far as the GTM goes your looking at a different animal and in my opinion it would be very difficult to build for that budget but maybe if you were lucky enough to score an abandoned kit with most of the parts, cheap.

Be careful when you talk cheap bodywork. The bodywork required on a GTM is not your typical primer-blocksand-paint. To get things to fit properly requires SERIOUS Fiberglass work and if you don't do that yourself you could spend serious money because of the shear hours involved.

I would take a hard look at perhaps a Roadster or a Coupe as they are great projects that would be much easier to build maintaining a budget.

Aaron
GTM #403

It's cool to know there is another Datsun fanboy in here :wave: I will be checking that site out shortly!

I should have phrased that better, what I meant was I could get a very friendly discount on the bodywork from that shop. I think I would be willing to spend 10K on the body work, not sure if that is enough for this beast though. That doesn't include paint by the way.

I know people that have done their own bodywork and done a "by the book" build and it turned out fine. Was it supercar, nats ass perfect? No. Was it a beautiful car that they put over 10,000 miles on and sold for just about what they spent to build it? Yep.

As far as alternatives, the 818 is probably now the best bang for the buck of any of the FFR models. As they are right now molding the 818C, the hardtop coupe model, there will be even more 818 options available in the next few months.

That is comforting to hear. I really like knowing other people have done it by the book and come out with a good reliable GTM.

The 818 is a really cool car. I enjoy the look of it and if they put a hardtop on it that's even better. But there is just something about a GTM that is just so special. I feel the same way for the GTM as the early Z series, so I know I have to have one.

 

[carbon fiber]

The new kits don't come with the g50 adapter plate and flywheel anymore either, they cost extra. That would be included in a used kit. I'd personally rather build myself to know what I've got.

 

[flickery]

I don't think the value is buying a "used kit" but a kit where someone invested money into the kit, donor, engine/transmission and other parts. I bought my GTM partially built and it has worked out well for me.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

 

[carbon fiber]

Partially Built or Unbuilt Kit bought second hand is what I meant by used kit, anything other than new from FFR. There have been a few that were just the kit, untouched, a lot cheaper than from FFR. The real trick is knowing what to look for as far as parts missing and the quality of work done so far. I'd rather have a raw untouched body myself, vs. one that's already to primer or paint. Again, so I'd know what I'd be getting. It is a shame as already mentioned the kit is 5k more now and the body issues haven't been addressed. I also think the buyer should have a choice of the adapter/flywheel for the g50, OR the Mendeola setup included in the kit when paying this much.

 

[RainyZ]

Partially Built or Unbuilt Kit bought second hand is what I meant by used kit, anything other than new from FFR. There have been a few that were just the kit, untouched, a lot cheaper than from FFR. The real trick is knowing what to look for as far as parts missing and the quality of work done so far. I'd rather have a raw untouched body myself, vs. one that's already to primer or paint. Again, so I'd know what I'd be getting. It is a shame as already mentioned the kit is 5k more now and the body issues haven't been addressed. I also think the buyer should have a choice of the adapter/flywheel for the g50, OR the Mendeola setup included in the kit when paying this much.

Well hopefully if I do find a second hand kit, I could have the help from someone on this forum to go and inspect the kit with me to make sure it's all there. It really seems like FFR took two steps in the wrong direction with the Gen II. If they would have listened to the real life builders of the kit they could have made so much more out of it.

 

[DIY]

Rainy Z,

I saw you are relatively new here and asking the right questions. I will say, there's a number of challenges that should not be as big as they can be for the 25K FFR is asking now. IMO, it's a slap in the face and a bit greedy to ask 5K more for a kit and miss the opportunity to fix many of the issues people run into....like the doors. My thought on this is that the GTM is like an ocean front hotel room. Even if its not perfect, it's still cool and we'll pay the price. What really gets me is that they didn't even improve the manual. It's written as if they thought we were watching them do the work.

25K is a lot of money and it's just the beginning. You could probably do this but it'll be tight considering the cost of engine, trans, paint and Corvette parts, not to mention all the little stuff. Before you know it, you'll be at 45K and wondering where it all went.

My recommendation is that you seriously consider what you want in the long run. The GTM has great potential but nobody wants to spend 45K on a car that doesn't look and operate flawlessly in their own mind. The GTM will have flaws and to get them to the level of being acceptable to yourself, you may surpass your budget unless you have the time, dedication and support for the long haul. You also need to REALLY want it because days (and sometimes entire weeks) will come that seem to go nowhere fast. You'll need to hang in there and push through it. If you do, you'll get past the challenges. Don't limit what you take on yourself. Just give yourself time to learn before getting to deep. Welding, body work and even paint can be learned and you can save money. Practice some of this on old parts, scrap or whatever the case. Paying for this stuff can break you.

The last thing I'll mention is that if you are thinking about a used kit, you definitely need to research first. Knowing what I do now, there's a laundry list of things to look for if the kits had a lot of work done. If you can't find someone here to help you look at one, then I'd be looking for one with the least amount of work done. The more that's been done, the less likely you are to know how it was done or how to un-do it. About the only thing you'll be able to judge is the persons character and the appearance of his work. Both can be deceiving so give it some thought.

BTW, I give FFR credit for sticking their neck out to do the GTM. They are a business and need to make a profit. They also have some pretty good staff and many of their kits are a hit. In the end, nothing matters other than your own satisfaction and above all, it's really what matters the most.

Good Luck

John
HOME

 

[RainyZ]

DIY,

Thanks for the awesome input.

So is the manual really that bad? From what little I’ve heard it is pretty hard to figure out what to do at times. I am actually looking to buy one used if I can find one. I know there is a PDF version for cheap but I need a hard copy to really focus.

Well got to start out somewhere and that somewhere is 25k. Plus everything else that goes into the kit. So it is worth mentioning that I would like to finish the project without going over 45k however... if I absolutely had to I would be willing to go over my budget. I would just have to take a year or so break to save the money. This is something that once complete I would never sell.

I am really anxious about trying the body work. I'm more nervous that I would ruin something. From what I have been told, you need some major experience in fiberglass work. Which I don't have. I would like to only outsource the bodywork portion of this project. Which raises a question, when building this kit can I build it to the go-kart stage then take it to a shop and have the body fitted to the car? Or is there a different order for fitting the car together?

I give FFR props for all they have accomplished. They did bring us the kit that has us typing right now and I can’t thank them enough for that. But they will probably be getting a very large chunk of change from this guy. Unless I find the perfect used kit of course! Who knows maybe in the next two years the price drops thanks to the 818.. Or not.

All in all I really appreciate the input you have provided me and I look forward to hearing back from you and more members!

V/R

Scott

 

[Shane]

Outsourcing the bodywork and staying in budget is not going to be possible. Your average body shop is not going to want anything to do with it....they make their money on insurance repair work, and spending hundreds of hours trying to figure out how to put a GTM together is not something they're interested in taking on......and putting the body together IS much of the bodywork. It does take a ton of work to get the doors and hood and hatch to fit correctly, and once you get them all hinged and latched, then there's a ton more work to get them to all look right and fit together right. It's all do-able....but to stay in budget, you're going to have to learn to do it yourself. There's plenty of help to be had on this forum when you get to that point.

 

[beeman]

Rainy Z,
IMO, it's a slap in the face and a bit greedy to ask 5K more for a kit"
John
HOME

I bet the current economic environment (higher taxes, mandatory health care, etc) is the culprit.

 

[RainyZ]

Outsourcing the bodywork and staying in budget is not going to be possible. Your average body shop is not going to want anything to do with it....they make their money on insurance repair work, and spending hundreds of hours trying to figure out how to put a GTM together is not something they're interested in taking on......and putting the body together IS much of the bodywork. It does take a ton of work to get the doors and hood and hatch to fit correctly, and once you get them all hinged and latched, then there's a ton more work to get them to all look right and fit together right. It's all do-able....but to stay in budget, you're going to have to learn to do it yourself. There's plenty of help to be had on this forum when you get to that point.

Thank you for clearing that up!