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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Chris,

First let me say if you have already shared/discussed this elsewhere my apologies. I have followed quite a few of your posts but hadn't seen an answer to this yet. I was going to email you directly with this question but thought others might benefit as I have talked to some that are wondering the same thing.

I have been considering upgrading the intake "path" on my EEC-IV EFI setup including MAF sensor, throttle body, and upper and lower intake to replace the stock components in order to better support the capabilities of my aluminum heads.

Specifically I had been looking at upgrading to a larger ProM MAF sensor, larger throttle body, and new intake such as the Edelbrock Performer. I am now also seriously considering your new product as an alternative. When looking at the products I mention above , especially the intakes, there seems to be plenty of information out there on before and after dyno results that demonstrate the power gains these products are capable of. I prefer the before and after dyno results becuase it illustrates the expected benfit of the investment. This I see as different than just the "after the upgrade" dyno which seems to someone with my limited knowledge of these things to demonstrate only the amount of power the system can "support" not a definitive demostration of any gain.

Have you done any before and after dyno tests of your new MAF EFI system? It would be great for example to see what the before and after results would be on either a stock MAF 5.0 liter or a setup like mine that is predomintently stock except for higher flowing heads that could get really benefit from upgrading the intake path? I greatly respect your knowledge in this area and suspect your system would net me tremendous gain but would find the purchase much "easier" if I could see concrete before and after dyno results.

Thoughts?

p.s PLEASE NOTE: I would ask (please) that no one hi-jack this post in order to challenge Chris' regarding this new product and/or to start the next great debate about the benefits of this new system. That is not my intent. Personally I think this is a fantastic new product and would simply like to find out if before and after dyno results are already available or if they in the works.

Thanks!
-Matt

[ August 19, 2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Matt Kennedy ]
 

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A fair question. Fact is, they tell you what you want to hear... I'll attemp to inform you about what you need to know. Their marketing strategy is surely more effective as far as sales goes, but I'll sleep tonight knowing I did my best to inform... not mislead.

I will answer the question to the best of my abillity. I sometimes have trouble converting what I know into words. As is usually the case, it gets more complicated than can be fully explained in a few paragraphs, but I'll do my best. Here goes:

The truth is, if you gain performance by bolting on an intake/throttle body combination, it's because what you took off was too restrictive, so of course you will gain power. How much power will depend on what you took off. That's where these companies are able to make horsepower claims... by comparing them to something that's not very good... for example, the stock Mustang intake. If I give you before and after examples, I'm just feeding you the same B/S everyone else is. I won't do it. You will gain horse power with my system if you are replacing junk. That's a fact. How much depends on how bad what you took off was. You are also gaining the potential for more horsepower. In other words, if your engine can make it, we can support it. There is no desputing the quality and horsepower potential of components that make up our systems. I can say with complete confidence that they are the finest available. We spared no expense when choosing and designing the pieces. Anyone who has recieved one of our systems will back me up here.

Intakes, throttle bodys, exhaust systems, mass air meters etc. don't create power... no matter what they tell you. They support (or restrict) an engines potential. Remember, an engine is just a pump, and you just need to let it breathe to it's potential. Too many times I've seen advertisers make claims like "Bolt on an extra 15hp with our throttle body". That should be followed by a 3 page long disclaimer. It just isn't so. If you could truly just add up all the horsepower claims made by different companies, we'd all have 1000 hp.

I prefer to tell it like it is. I suppose I could fill you with the same B/S everyone else does, but I prefer to provide fact... not fiction. We did do one dyno comparison... not so much to check horsepower, but to look at the air fuel ratio under different load conditions to make sure the engine management system was still as effective with our setup as it was with the stock type stuff. We started with an Explorer intake and 65mm t-body, and ended with our setup. The A/F was dead on, and we did gain some horsepower. I was surprized to gain anything, because the explorer intake is more than capable of supporting the GT40-P heads and mild cam. It doesn't mean a thing however, since it was on a different day, under different conditions. That's another point... Dynos vary so much from machine to machine and from day to day, that you have to look at the results with a measure of scepticism.

Here's what I do have. I think they say it best:

http://www.ffcars.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=042384#000000

http://www.ffcars.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=042615

[ August 19, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Quality Roadsters, Inc. ]
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Chris, I hear and accept your position.

I do understand that before and after dyno tests on intake components are more demonstrative of how less restrictive a product is rather than a measure of how much horsepower it is "making". I'm not fooled by the vendors that way.

Having said that I do see such tests as a relative comparison of how much less restrictive one product may be over another. It seems possible to me that you could have 2 different intake products that could *support* say 500hp but when you do before and after dyno tests one nets you a much greater hp gain.

For example lets say I go out and buy an Edelbrock Performer intake and also say one of those new BBK SSI intakes and do before and after dynos on both. Lets just say for this discussion that the Edelbrock "allowed" my setup to make an additional 15hp and the BBK "allowed" my setup to make an additional 35hp. I know that isn't a demonstration that either is "making" horsepower but it would seem to indicate to me that (in this ficticious example) the BBK would be much less restrictive and a better purchase decision in terms of $/hp net gain regardless of whether both intakes advertised a similar ability to support high hp numbers.

In any event that is why the before and after seemed helpful to me. It seems to provide a point of comparison on how restrictive - relatively speaking - a given intake setup is.

One final point. Regardless of everything I have stated above and the possible results of such a test there would be a very good chance I'd choose to buy your product regardless (well nearly regardless anyway) of the results because of the huge benefit of its great vintage/aesthetic appeal and support for mass air together in one package. It is definitely in its own class from that standpoint.

Thanks.
-Matt

[ August 19, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Matt Kennedy ]
 

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Matt,

You simply will not see any real difference in horsepower when comparing two GOOD and SIMILAR OPERATING RANGE intakes. Different intakes work diffently at a given RPM. For example a Torker II versus a Victor Jr. Even these differences are minor at most with port EFI. Just choose an intake design that works best in your application.
 

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Matt,

Sorry to budge into your thread here, but I think you're missing the point. There is A LOT more to increasing power than just the intake and throttle body.

In your example above, you say on intake makes 15 hp more and another 35 hp more. At what RPM? What's the torque difference?

You can easily take two good intakes and do a dyno compare and set the rest of the engine up to make whichever one win that you want. For example, test a box intake against a long-runner intake. The box intake will make more hp on an engine setup for high RPM. The long-runner intake will win on low end torque and would most likely win on hp also if the valvetrain was not set up for high rpm.

Pete
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK, I beleive I see and understand the point that you are both making. (I'll admit I have a lot to learn).

Pete you are not barging in your right on topic and I think in line with what Chris is saying. So I guess then based on what your saying I would modify my original question.

What you are both really saying is that intakes have different designs (short vs. long runner) that can produce very different dyno curves and that looking soley at a single gross hp increase figure that might result from installing a particular intake or system is not only incomplete it can be misleading. I see that. Understood.

I also realize it is common knowledge that an engine running a short runner intake will tend to produce a dyno curve with more hp and torque on the upper end of the rpm scale vs. a long runner intake that would tend to support production of more hp or torque on the lower end of the dyno curve. (I realize I am oversimplyfying a bit here)

Based on coming to this realization (with your help thank you) what I was raelly looking for then is not some gross hp figure but rather to see the overall dyno curve in a before and after test. To better understand how your system operates across the dyno curve for 2 reasons:

1. To understand more clearly what the operating range for your system is. In other words is the operating range of your system more like that of a short or a long runner intake? Do you happen to know this from the dyno runs you made?

2. To be able to compare the entire dyno curve of your system against the curve produced by a stock setup. Even better to also be able to compare your system against the curve of a couple of off the shelf products that operate in a similar operating range to yours in order to better understand how your system comparitively operates across the RPM range. To be able to compare your system to others.

If you did such a test and found that your system offered significant hp and/or torque gains across the entire dyno curve or even in an operating range compared to stock or to a setup designed to operate in a particular range would be of great interest to me as a consumer. Conversly (not that it would) but if the same test showed that your system didn't offer any improvement in hp or torque across the entire curve or worse it lost hp or torque across the curve as compared to stock or packages designed to operate in a similar range would create question on my part.

Maybe it is just me but making an investment of this size would be much easier if I knew how this system operated across the dyno curve and how it compares to stock and other products operating in a similar range. I guess I have become much more skeptical as I get older. Just knowing about several product options that "support" a particular hp doesn't seem like enough information to make a sound product decision. It still seems to me (someone ingnorant of these things) that there must be a lot of room for variability in the way these products would perform across the dyno curve comparitively. Or maybe just knowing that a particular system supports a given hp is enough and I just don't get it. If that is it sorry for taking you down this path...

[ August 19, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Matt Kennedy ]
 

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Chris, I am glad to finally see someone admit that before and after dyno tests are almost useless. Thank you.

In my work, I have done several measurement system studies which revealed that anytime a human is involved in the measurement, the repeatability of the results is greatly diminished. That is why I am so skeptical of dyno comparisons.

I crack up everytime I see the Tornado info-mercial with an Impala SS on the dyno with a big needle on the wall. Funny stuff.

Dynos do have their place and are useful tools. You just have to eliminate as many variables as possible to have apples to apples comparisons.

Keep up the good work. I am really impressed with your vintage look EFI.

Matt, good questions and write-up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My engine is a completely rebuilt, completely stock, 5 liter except for new Edelbrock aluminum heads and a b-cam. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say so here is actually a pic of my engine:



[ August 19, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Matt Kennedy ]
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yes, all completely stock at this point. The Cobra nameplate on the intake is for dressup only - it is completely stock.

[ August 19, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Matt Kennedy ]
 

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Sorry, the picture answered my question. I have to assume that the stock intake is restricting that combo of heads and cam. It would also be helpfull to know what headers you're using. They look like 1 5/8". You should gain something. How much, and what the curve will look like, can only be determined by actually installing it, and doing before and after dyno comparisons. The power and torque curves will be determined more by the cam and heads than by the intake, etc. The difference is that my system will let your engine breathe to it's potential. I don't think the stock stuff is.

Go to the dyno, do a run, do the swap, and go back. If you want to know how much your going to get, that's the only way your going to find out. Make sure you do both tests in similar conditions... temp, humidity, etc. and on the same dyno.

[ August 19, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Quality Roadsters, Inc. ]
 

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Matt,

Chris's system will definately ad(allow) :D HP on your motor. Your heads, cam and exhaust will support somewhere north of 300hp. Your intake, TB, and MAF will support somewhere south of 250. You do need some sort of upgrade to realize the potential as Chris states it so clearly.

I would suspect you would see a good 30+ crank HP, and a much stronger pull above 4000rpm's with Chris's system. You may loose a small amount of torque below 2000ish rpm's, but I suspect it would be a small loss if any... your heads and cam allow for a much higher RPM potential.

Most importantly, you will get the vintage look. For me, the look alone on a street car would be worth it, if only a small gain was realized.

David
 

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I agree with David you have the heads and cam to support 325-340 HP and the intake, TB and MAF to support 250-260HP. I have back to back dyno sheets on a 351W (Performer RPM heads, 540 lift cam) with a 750 Holley on a performer rpm intake and then swtching to the stack injection with the Redline computer. The injection picked up 4% HP and 6%Tq over the good carb/dual plane manifold. If you put my system or Quality Roadsters system on your car, you would expect to see 50-70 more HP due the how much better the Stack manifold or modified Edelbrock manifold flows over the stock 5.0 manifold. The #5 cylinder on the 5.0 has notoriously bad flow due to having to snake around the distributor.

Here are the sheets, they were done by Don Scott. He purchased the systems and I had no involvement in the dyno testing nor did I pay for any testing.


 

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I'm in the process right now of configuring the system on my car. I've done a dyno run prior to the change and will do another after the change. I will tell you that everything will remain the same on the engine EXCEPT the air intake system.

To be fair, it will be done on the same dyno and timing will remain the same. Fuel pressure will remain the same. Same cap, rotor, wires, plugs,etc. I feel this will be a fair comparison to what I had.

I will post before and after when I get done. Hopefully in a couple of weeks. I just happen to take a little longer being as anal as I am. ;)

Having this baseline will also show what gain/loss I will have in future mods.

No, I won't tell you what I have right now. That's not fair.

I will give Chris credit in this area, his stuff is fantastic. Very neat and complete. I always say "you get what you pay for" and this fits this category well. I'm not saying that someone else can give the same results for less, just that I'm a happy customer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Dave/Wayne, thanks for the feedback and Wayne also for posting the dyno curves from the before and after on the stack setup. I just printed it to take home and look through more closely tonight.

Weendoggy, Fantastic. I will be waiting with GREAT interest to hear and hopefully see (hopfully you can post the graphs) what the results of your before and after are!

-Matt
 

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Matt,

Well it's taken longer than I expected, but the results are in. I am very pleased with the results and the fact that it "looks great" is a bonus.

I have a full report on my website so I won't put all that stuff here. However, I will say that this system is fantastic. “Plug-n-play” is a term used loosely, but in this case, it did it’s job. There is a photo build of the intake setup and both before and after dyno runs with each system with charts.

I also have a report on how the system worked from sea level (that's where I live) to 9,000ft on a trip we took. This is all objective on my part and Chris had no say in what I wrote. I can say that his work did just about what I expected given my engine setup.

The next outing is the COCOA event the end of October at Willow Springs. I expect this to perform just as well as it did before with noticeable top end performance.

You can read about my findings here: www.weendoggy.com/engine.htm (dyno runs) and www.weendoggy.com/fuel.htm (Mass-Flo upgrade).
 

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Chris, I think the engine had a little more, but not much. The line was starting to peak at that point and we used 6k as a baseline. It's funny because when we started I told him to top out at 5400 and that wasn't enough, nor was 5800. :D Given the fact the computer will shut it down at 6250, we/I decided to wait until the stroker gets installed. Then we'll see the line(s) go higher!

Rickster, I plan on selling them. ;)
 
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