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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Guys

Did my first start last weekend, which felt great, but am running into problems with the Powerjection III (I think). The engine starts fine, but after running for about three or four seconds, the engine sounds fuel starved and will hesitate (drop revs) and then recover. It will keep running with this pattern of hesitation and surging.

Engine is a Ford X302 crate engine with Edelbrook Air Gap RPM intake, using MSD6AL-2 and MSD Coil, with tach output connected to PJ III harness (as per instructions). Fuel pump is Ford in-tank fuel pump and fuel pressure stays constant at 45. O2 sensor 4-4 header on cylinder 3 tube. I am also using ISIS power with push button start.

Using the Dashboard software, I programmed for 300 ft/lb torque, Dual plane intake manifold and 15 lb vacuum (more or less default for 300hp). It tells me that the engine is running at around 2000rpm, which seems too high for idle.

Looking down the throttle body, fuel is arriving at the bowls, but not in a steady stream, and the drops in revs are timed with the drop in fuel arrival.

The exhaust headers are also getting a lot of carbon, implying that it is running too rich.

Here is a poor quality video of the first start and you can hear some of the surging of the engine: Rick Builds an FFR Roadster- How Hard Could it Be?.

Any thoughts and comments would be helpful and appreciated.

Rick
 

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Rick,
Had the same type of issues, took some time to figure it out.
As for your torque input it is suppose to be wheel torque. So if you know the flywheel try about 85% of that. I have a M-6007-XE3M 302 ci 340 HP 310 ft-lbs torque. TKO and 3:55 rear.

I used about 265 today and it ran much better. They recommend about 80% which on my engine was very lean. There are a bunch of items to check and set to tune this in thing. Self learning is a misnomer, you have to get it close to start.

Try getting on forum web site...you will be amazed at the info available.

Professional Products Forum

There a bunch of adjustments and checks you can make to get it running better. There are a bunch of folks on that forum that will help.
Hope this helps.
Glen
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the advice!

Glen:

Appreciate your thoughts and will get onto the Professional Products forum.

Will also dial back the torque as you suggest.

Do you think that part of the issue is that I haven't really warmed up the engine? The rough running was bothering me so much that I never really let it warm up.

Thanks again.

Rick
 

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Rick,

I have also been through this process and here are the things that finally got me running pretty smoothly. Oh by the way mine is a 93' 302, 6AL2, Blaster 2, MDS dizzy, and performer lower manifold. The PJIII has a stall save mode and it is looking for a 150 degree plus temp to run better in the idle cell. If your engine is cold it might be in this stall saving mode, from what you describe sounds like it is. This might also present a rich tune like you say. Once I forgot to hook up my brake booster vacuum line and it ran extremely rich. Make sure all your vacuums are plugged or hooked up. Also, if you haven't already done so check your total timing. Timing at idle means nothing to the PJIII. Your dizzy or cam may have some advance in them so idle timing may read something way different once the total is set. My idle reads 6 degrees but I think the dizzy has 7 degrees in it. Total timing is around 34 degrees I'm guessing at 2500rpm+/-. You also might check and see if you set your TPS (throttle position sensor) max and min. Lastly if your idle is 2000 rpm then closing down your idle screws (both barrels equally) should allow you to achieve a 950 rpm +/-. My throttle plates are so closed down you can't even slide a piece of paper through the gap. Hope this helps. This was one of the hardest parts of my build so I get what your going through!

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Jeff:

Thanks for the thoughts. Will follow up on your suggestions.

One question about the TPS calibration. In the Dashboard software I have done the calibration, but I am not sure that the software accepted the min and max. It seems that clicking Min and Max will make the buttons go green for a quick moment, but there is no other feed back that the software has accepted the settings. Is this the usual experience?

Rick
 

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Yes you are right. There is not really a clear signal that it has been performed. Sometimes you can tell on the min. if it originally says your throttle position is at 2% and then after calibration it corrects to 0%. Just be sure your ignition is in on position and your laptop sees the PJIII.

Jeff
 

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Jeff:

Thanks for the thoughts. Will follow up on your suggestions.

One question about the TPS calibration. In the Dashboard software I have done the calibration, but I am not sure that the software accepted the min and max. It seems that clicking Min and Max will make the buttons go green for a quick moment, but there is no other feed back that the software has accepted the settings. Is this the usual experience?

Rick
The TPS will set as described. You don't really see a lot when doing it. To check, you can plug in the laptop, turn key on and go to Real-Time Data (F11) and see that it's working. You can also do a data log, which I highly recommend, and see it working there when you view the file.

Be sure you have 6A Tach selected in the Setup file and have Closed Loop and Adaptive Learning ON (red) Turn Tunning Strategy to Automatic.

Again, this is a start and you'll need to drive to get the system to "learn" in AL. Be sure to click on the Data Log toggle on the main screen before you start driving. This will give you startup issues as well as driving styles. Drive for awhile and then stop, turn off the DL and view the file. This will help you A LOT in tunning your engine. I also think you should lower your torque to about 265 to start. With a pretty much stock engine that is more realistic.

View the Adaptive Learn Fuel (F2) after you return but with key on and you can see what it's trying to adjust. A -16 would mean it's trying to take 16% of fuel away from what you may/may not want and a 16 would mean it's trying to add 16% of fuel. This doesn't mean you have to take that as a positive because your setup may need that fuel. Experiment with a few cells at one time. This way, you know what you're trying to accomplish.

Make adjustments in the house or directly on the car in your Target Air/Fuel (F1) table. These coincide with the AL table so it should make it easy.

You can also adjust on "the fly" in the Fuel Wizard (F8) table while driving.

Your setup is only going to read fuel from one cylinder which may cause issues as well. I collect from one bank of four at my collector (4-into-4) and don't have many issues and can switch the O2 to the other side if needed to view the other bank.

The PIII forum is a great place for information. They just launched it this summer.
 

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Like Glenn said, do not expect it to be perfect out of the box, it is a learning thing but you have think about it a little. You are not going to teach a first grader calculus, you are not going to get instant results from the PJIII but give it good info and it will learn, Be honest about the numbers, not what you wish the number is. Play with a few perameters and it will do a great job.


ONE THING TO REMEMBER IS IT NEVER LEARNS COLD. It has to be warmed up.

What we do is get it running turn the idle up so it comes up to temp and then turn it down until the IAC works once up to temp. Start driving, find a hill and go up it in different gears and down it in different gears, this will set some of the for high and low MAP. Go for another drive at different speeds all in the same gear, 40, 50, 60, 70 all in 5th, this will get the cruise cells set. Be patient. HTH, Richard.

PS, If you got it from Wayne at Very cool parts your life will be better.
 

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Yep, sounds like IAC.

I found with the FAST EZ-EFI(Same type system), that IAC working properly when cold was paramount to the systems operating properly any other time.

When my motor exhibited behavior similar to yours, I went through the initial setup again, and when I could hear the honk of the IAC closing and opening slightly when cold to maintain RPM, the motor ran much better going forward.

Another thing I noticed on mine, and maybe Richard or Wayne can explain, is when setup was proper, I could change the idle RPM in the ECU, and the IAC would adjust to maintain that RPM. And I didn't have to touch the idle screw.

But like Richard said, it does take a while to learn, and if you install it during warm weather, here being 80-90 degrees, and it suddenly changes to 40-50 degrees, more learning is needed.

You will eventually be able to sense when your engine is happy without looking at a computer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Many thanks

Thanks for all of the feedback.

I will dial back the torque, get it out of the garage and warm up the engine. Then log the heck out of it and start studying the numbers.

It will be a little while before I can get it going up and down hills. The seats are still only "gravity stabilized" :001_smile:

Rick
 
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