Factory Five Racing Forum banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
891 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I plan to run Waynes Stack Injection system on my motor with the TEC3 management system. I would also like to run an Aeromotive belt driven fuel pump (running a gilmer belt with a dry sump oil pump as well). Does anybody know if the fuel injection system will operate without an electric pump? The Aeromotive pump will provide more than enough fuel pressure to operate it while running, but what would happen during start-up?

I know this may sound rediculous to some of you, but could I run the electric fuel pump that comes in the fuel cell to start it, then kill it and run the car from the Aeromotive pump?

You guy's probably think I'm off my rocker! I'm just trying to be a little different and wanted to have some "trick" hardware that people don't see much. Please do not start the lectures on durability or street manners, as I am going for full out "sick"!
 

·
Senior Charter Member
Joined
·
580 Posts
Take the Mech. pump guts out and plumb the electric pump thu the Mech.and on to your injectors, This will make life safer and simpler for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
You will be going through belts fairly regularly with a dry sump. Where will you store 15 (min)quarts of oil?
I don't mean to sound discouraging. I tried something similar once,(blower, dry sump, mech fuel inj) and while cool, quite a pain. I never felt comfotable with it. Dry sumps can cost as much as a simple crate engine.
I like CAPTDON's suggestion.
Good luck.

EDITED: sorry about the lecture.
 

·
Charter Member
Joined
·
768 Posts
Most Diesel engines use dual pumps, the first is a low pressure pump called a lift pump, then there is the high pressure pump. I think as long as you plumb a return line from your regulator you should be okay.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,237 Posts
Tom - the TEC3 has an output for a fuel pump relay, but I don't *think* it has any sort of feedback or input that REQUIRES the use of an electric pump. Your engine will likely not fire up as quickly w/ the mechanical pump as it would with a pre-primed electric setup, but I don't think there's anything w/ the TEC3 that would preclude you from using a mechanical pump if you wanted to. You might want to call Wayne to be sure.
 

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
891 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Guy's,I appreciate the responses.

Wade, I have downloaded the user manual for the TEC3, so I will try to read through it to understand if it will work. I was also thinking that start-up would be delayed without an electric pump, but that it would probably start after a few cranks and operate normally. I will speak with Wayne.

I am wondering if there is a way to utilize the electric pump that comes with the fuel cell option to "charge the system" for start-up, then shut it off after starting once the mechanical pump takes over. My biggest concern would be how to plumb this set-up so one system did not "backfeed" through the other, causing a loss of fuel pressure. Any thoughts?

As far as the belts or the pump not being for street use, I am not concerned. I will be running the gilmer belt system, dry sump, mechanical fuel pump, etc simply because "I want to". I am not really looking for a "touring car". Looking for something I can get some track time, Autocross time, drive to the occasional car show (within 100 miles or so), and trailer to any event where I am concerned about it's reliability. I have a trailer and I also have AAA Gold. Same goes for the Dry sump set-up. I want it because I've got money to blow and I think it's cool (not to mention more horsepower caused by: better ring sealing, less crankshaft windage, more accurate timing. Also less chance of oil starvation due to g-forces).

Captain Don - Your idea is reasoable & I like it. I think I would want to utilize the mechanical pump and it's flow capabilities rather than the electric pump alone. Having both available would afford some redundancy to the system. Maybe I could build in some type of manually operated (valved) bypass system (around the mechanical pump) in case I ever had a belt failure.

Thanks guy's. Any additional thoughts / ideas?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,237 Posts
Tom - I think it would still fire up ok, it would just take a few revolutions to fire rather than the typicall immediate fire of an EFI setup.

You could run an in-line electric pump, then put bypasses around BOTH pumps with check valves allowing forward flow. On start up, the electric pump would push past the check valve around the mechanical pump bypass. Shut the electric pump off, and fuel will flow around its bypass to the mechanical pump. You could even have an overide to run the car on the electric pump in case of a belt failure.
 

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
891 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Wade,

I like the way you think. I will contact you via PM to discuss further.

I am still interested in hearing ideas from others though. Keep them coming......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,149 Posts
Tom,
May I suggest you look at the offshore powerboat racing scene for ideas on your fuel pumps. The big boats run fuel injection and some sort of primer pump for starting as they have to be self-sufficient when in the water. Good luck with all your gadgets!! That cars gonna be cool!!
As far as "money to blow", my adoption papers have been forwarded... :D :D :D
 

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
891 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Jeff,

Thanks for the ideas / direction.

Adoption papers! I have money to blow because I don't have kids! Seriously, it's not that I have a ton of money sitting around. I am just completey irresponsible and have realized that I should be able to swing about $50K to $70K toward a dream car over the next 2-3 years. That will go a long way in one of these cars.

I also have an extremely understanding wife, who does not work, but understands I am really a child in a mans body!

By the way, looks like you have dual quads planned. I have been torn between them and the Stack injection system. I love the look of dual quads!
 

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
891 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Michael D - no problem on "the lecture". thanks for the input though. Worth weighing in possible issues. Costs are not an issue. Reliability is only a minor issue, as I understand the issues associated with it.

Now, where to put 3-4 gallon tank - THAT will be a challenge. One that I am looking forward to figuring out. Saw one guy with one in the trunk, but I do not like that idea. Saw another Kirkham with one mounted in the engine compartment. I am a problem solver, I'll figure it out.

Anyway, no offense taken by any responses unless they attack me directly.
 

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
1,997 Posts
To be honest, I have never heard of a belt driven fuel pump before this post. Having said that, wouldn't a belt driven fuel pump have a variable output based on RPM? If so, you'll have to come up with a different way of regulating pressure to the injectors. The method used by Ford is to regulate based on vacuum (or lack of) with a fixed output from the pump. So, if you have a 155 LPH pump it will always put out about 155 LPH except that the amount returning to the tank varies with vacuum. When you stomp on the gas the demand goes up but the vacuum decreases and closes down on the regulator to keep the pressure up.

If you have a variable flow rate as I think you're suggesting, you'll have to find a pressure regulator that gets it's feedback from the injector rails, not the manifold. In other words, gas on top of the regulator diaphragm instead of vacuum. You would set the regulator to the desired pressure at idle. Then, as pressure drops due to fuel demand the regulator would close allowing pressure to remain at the required psi. Now that I've said all that it might not be such a big problem because as fuel demand goes up, so does flow rate from the pump. It would work as long as the change in flow has the appropriate relationship with demand. If not, it's back to finding a regulator that gets its feedback from the fuel rails.

Does someone make such a regulator that operates off of fuel pressure instead of manifold pressure?

Rick
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,237 Posts
you would still use a vacuum referenced regulator. As long as the pump can supply a greater amount of fuel at any engine speed/load, you're good to go. The "extra" just goes to the tank just like w/ an electric pump.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
An electric pump plumbed in ahead of the mechanical feed will work sweet. Put a check valve in the line. The return will always be the return. The downside is pulling fuel thru the ITP. It will be quite a resrtiction not running.

You could use a 4 cylinder ranger pump, about 65 LPH to feed the mechanical pump. This would eliminate any cavitation issues and give you a "limp home mode" automatically with the above mentioned check valve system.
The gains from a dry sump will be minimal on the street. There is a chance of a performance decrease as the belt driven pumps are HP hogs. However, the "holy crap" factor will be HUGE!!

Frank Messina - no offense taken, I hope none was returned. I had a really bad day yesterday.
 

·
FFCobra Fanatic
Joined
·
891 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The fuel cell option from FFR comes with an electric fuel pump. I plan to use that. Right now, I am leaning toward using the Electric pump at the tank and the Aeromotive belt driven pump at engine. (may also go with the new one that attaches to rear of dry-sump oil pump if I have any belt / pump fitment problems). Wade's earlier post describing both pumps with bypasses around each triggered a private discussion that has me thinking I've got a direction now, just need to hammer out the details and talk to the tech guys @ aeromotive to see if it will work.

We decided that the TEC3 system should be programmable to provide power to a relay to start electric pump and prime system prior to start-up. Then, once the motor is running, the system would sense manifold air pressure and kill the electric pump. Wade identified some aeromotive checkvalves that might work for me to allow a one way bypass around both pumps. Electric pump would push fuel around mechanical pump for priming system and mechanical pump would pull fuel around electric pump when not in use. We even decided that this system would provide redundancy in case of a belt failure by providing an over-ride switch to turn on the electric pump. (TEC3 might even be able to do this automatically if sensing a specific fuel pressure drop, not sure it has the capability to do this)

Right now, Wade has some concerns about pressure loss and cavitation once the mechanical pump takes over. Right now, I think that is the biggest hurdle. I also need to figue out how to add an additional pick-up and an fittings to fuel cell to provide a bypass around tank mounted fuel pump. Once I receive the cell, it should not be too hard to figure out.

Anyway, I will continue to investigate and welcome additional comments, especially about the cavitation issue and how to solve it. Thank you all for your ideas and comments, this forum amazes me.
 

·
Just Glad to be here - back to working on the car
Joined
·
1,633 Posts
Tom,

Many of these problem are faced in aerobatic aircraft. I'll see if I can find some of the fuel system diagrams for both mechanical/electrical pumps. Adding a fuel pickup to the fuel cell shouldn't be too hard. In some ways you are making this problem too hard, K.I.S.S. I'm sure you know that one.

Don't restrict yourself to just Aeromotive products, I've helped build lots of combination dry-sump-pump/fuel-pump/power-steering-pump systems for cars and similar systems for more airplanes. A single drive point, VERY high reliability, combo can be built for just a little more than a dual drive system. Tilton among others make a really nice rear, direct drive off the flywheel, system that puts both the fuel pump and the oil pump in one package and a P/S pump in another. But being on the bellhousing they are kind of hard to see, and that reduces the WOW factor.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top