[Matt Kennedy]

Last spring I bought and installed an EM soft top on my FFR. It is black cloth vs. vinyl. Someone once told me it is called Hartz cloth and is similar to that used on Mercedes. I think it looks great. Very finished and high quality looking when on the car. I also like the zippered side curtains.

It sounds like EM might not be an option going forward if they cannot or choose not to reorganize their company. I can tell you there were a couple of aspects (although relatively small) about the EM top that did not lend themselves to the FFR body and required some additional work.

Having said all of that I wonder if those of you looking for an alternative to the FFR top might consider trying to convince FFR to change to or at least offer cloth material as an option. It seems that changing material would be simple given whoever is making the top must already have a pattern for cutting.

Just a thought...

-Matt

 

[CRZN 427]

Matt,

I believe there are two kinds of cloth covered convetible to material known as Hartz Cloth. One kind is made over seas, Germany I believe, the other is made in the US.

The German made cloth is VERY expensive, I haven't priced it out, that is what my fabric supplier told me.

The US made cloth is about three times the cost of vinyl. For the average Cobra top that is in the neighborhood of $100 more. My fabric supplier said that the Hartz cloth he sells, the US made, is the most expensive material in is store.

That might be one of the reasons the Harts cloth isn't offered.
Another is that the originals had vinyl and everyone knows that imitatation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Yet again, the vinyl might be thought of as easier to keep clean when it spends most of its life folded up and stored in the trunk.

 

[DrewFFRCobra]

When I was in college I worked for a high-end auto upholstery business. Fun job in college as I was restoring and working on BMWs and Mercedes on a regular basis and even (among many other interior jobs) did an entire Jaguar XK12 interior & top on my own and an entire top restoration for a Shelby 500KR.

For our shop, convertible tops were a mainstream of the business. There were rare instances where we even had to make tops (Model Ts). There are indeed 2 types of cloth (actually it is canvas) top materials. The vinyl materials comes in various weights as well (ounces). The German canvas Hartz material is the absolute best and is standard issue on Mercedes and BMW. The vinyl tops are made by a multitude of manufacturers with Robbins being one of the better US outfits.

My suggestion would be to get a group of FFR owners to commit to buying a top and talk to someone either at:
- a great auto upholstery shop (i.e. award winning restorations)
- a shop that fabricates tops for boats (these folks work with canvas and the clear vinyl windows all the time)
- speak directly with someone at Robbins or another convertible top company to manufacture a top (perhaps FFR could just sub this out)

The top frame would likely not be fabricated by any of the above suggestions. So, another source for constructing a solid frame would need to be found.

Getting FFR to convert to a canvas option would be the easiest solution, but I would imagine that there are alot of other higher-priority projects on their minds.

The vinyl top may be accurate for the original Shelby, but canvas tops were produced for cars long before the 60's. The canvas tops, in my opinion, just looks SO much better than vinyl. They require more care and proper cleaning, but look great. The EM tops look great but do require modifications from the one I've seen installed on an FFR.

Since I won't be driving my FFR daily (once it's complete), there's no need for me to rush out and purchase a top. But, if a good canvas top were available, I'd likely be much more interested the canvas than the vinyl.

Drew
FFR????

[ October 20, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: DrewFFRCobra ]

 

[CRZN 427]

DrewFFRCobra,

It sounds like you have had lots of experience with this issue.

There is one thing I wish to clarify, if you will.

The material I am talking about has a cloth inner lining (usually black), a rubber center barrier and a cloth outer lining (available in various colors) all bonded together to be one piece.

The canvas I have seen is one layer of heavy cloth (hemp, cotton or linnen) that is tightly woven.

The material I have seen used on boats, and I haven't seen it all, is not Hartz cloth, but is canvas, or possibly Duck (a finer grade of cotton or linnen than canvas).

 

[bill32]

Maybe I am confused but according to the FFR options page:
"12020 Convertible Soft Top w/side curtains
Comes w/ canvas soft top, sliding side curtains, and powder coated hoop assemblies w/ fasteners"

That appears to be canvas, not vinyl. I believe canvas is cloth, isn't it???

 

[DrewFFRCobra]

Bill: it was my understanding that FFR only offered a vinyl top. I could be wrong, but the FFR tops I've seen were vinyl with hard plastic sliding window side curtains and the EM top was certainly canvas with zippered clear flexible plastic side curtains. Would be interested to know if other versions of the FFR top exists.

CRZN427: I'm not familiar with the product you mention of bonded rubber/cloth/canvas. It sounds like a very thick (thus weather resistant) product, but I would be concerned that such a thick product would be bulky and difficult to fold either by itself (i.e., put in the trunk) or would cause the top bows to bind and not fold down very flat. The canvas tops I've seen were a thick layer of canvas with a lighter weight backing material such as cotton to provide a finished look on the interior of the cars.

In my experience, the older 1980's BMW 3 Series had the simplest of tops as they were canvas and clear plastic windows and not much else - we did so many of these as they were usually victims of vandalism. The VW Cabriolets from the '80's & '90s were actually the more complex tops as they incorporated a vinyl (or sometimes canvas) exterior top, a layer of "horse hair" padding (which we usually replaced with dense foam), an interior headliner made of white vinyl, and a complex series of cables & latches with an all glass rear window with defroster. The Porsche 911 tops were always canvas but with a headliner and were a pain to install as one wrong move during installation and RRRIIIPPPP went the top (about $2000 for the canvas alone.) On an interesting note, the old Fox body Mustang convertible tops ('80s - '93) used a very durable and thick vinyl top, but we all hated to install them as the Mustang chassis was not very good at keeping the entire body from twisting over time so that nearly all of the top frames were usually bent and the tops never fit right (read: leaked badly and lots of wind noise).

Anyway, the automotive materials may have changed since it's been over 10 years since I was in college. But, if the the material you mention (CRZN427) is thin enough and is used as a convertible top by other manufacturers, then it would be a good solution. But, to me, it sounds like the material you're speaking about is a heavier duty marine grade material for use on boats that must endure extreme conditions.

Drew
FFR????

 

[Bob Lennon]

My two cents. My wife and I made my top. The windows however are the same ones that come with the factory five top. They work fine. Great to let in a little breeze and you can see through them just like normal window. DUh! My rear window is a vinyl convertible window and is goofy! What I mean is looking through is similar to the looking through a shower door when you've had too much to drink. I don't know what it is like to look through those flexible plastic side windows, but if it is any thing like my rear window, the FFR hard curtains would be the way to go.

 

[DrewFFRCobra]

Looks great! Did you also bend the top bows? How did you attach the bows to the car? What did you use to latches to the front winshield?

Again, it looks great Bob! It appears to sit lower that the FFR top, right? I would agree that the hard plastic side windows provide better visibility.

Hmmm...I sense an side-business opportunity here for you! Have you given thought to producing these tops and selling them via the forum? Do you have top templates for the material you cut out? I would bet that ALOT of us would be interested in either purchasing a completed top (less than the FFR $1300+ obviously) or at least a set of templates for the top and the bows, as we could sub-out the top sewing to a local upholstery shop or boat shop and the bows could be fabricated with a pipe bender and basic fastening hardware.

Others interested?

Drew
FFR????

 

[AJ]

I would be interested. I would like to see what is supporting that top too.

Andy

 

[CRZN 427]

DerwFFRCobra,

I have used three types of material on my tops so far.

At first I used a light canvas (single layer) material. I was concerned that a heavier material would get caught between the folding mechanism pieces and get cut. The thin cloth would fit in the space when folded double, like it would be if it got caught.

The down side was that at highway speeds it could start to flap against the bows, especially with the side windows removed.

Then I went to a vinyl convertible top material. This has a cloth inner liner, usually black, a rubber middle barrier and an outer coating of vinyl, available in a variety of colors.

This material is about as thick as some canvas I have seen used on large tents.

The vinyl will fold and lay down when made into a sewn seam three layers thick, like the seam on a pair of denim jeans. This kind of seam has a folded edge on both inner and outer surfaces, no frayed ends show.

I eliminated the pinching problem by using snaps on the sides of the top, where it attaches to my main frame. I fold the sides over the top before folding the top down thus keeping the material clear of the mechanism.

I started to use Harts cloth (my material supplier refers to it as "Stay Fast") at the request of one of my customers. It is actually easier to use than the vinyl due to the outer layer being cloth. The fabric isn't as stiff. It is about the same thickness as the vinyl.

What I use is made for the automotive undustry, but it could be used on anything that needed a top made of weather proof material.

I just started to play around in this area so I don't know how long the material has been available.

 

[Bob Lennon]

Thanks for the compliments. I've got more businesses than I can handle as it is. The last thing I need is another "side" business. I'm a trial attorney with a solo practice. My wife is a master tailor and I help her with the third family business importing art from eastern Europe! At my wife's labor rate and my billing rate, I'd have to charge about $3000 for the top to make a dollar! There is no pattern. I made the bows. It was a lot more difficult than I had anticipated. My wife does what tailors call "fittings". They slowly narrow down the final shape by, first pinning and clamping then gradually taking in the seams until it works. In fact the photos were taken befor the final fitting. You will not the seams don't show thread. This was only the intermediate seam. After the photo the inside was cut down and hemmed at all seams with a double "topstiching." More than you need to know?

When a guy walks into the tailor shop with a hump on his back (this happens just about every day) there need not be any discussion that the objective is to cut the suit to diminish the appearance of the hump. Since you can't move the hump you have to move every thing around it so it is less visible. That what Dianna did with the top. The roll bar is the hump and the top is fit around it.

You asked to see the bows. Frankly, I'm not completely satisfied with them but here's a picture. They work well but don't look as well as I'd like. Since the photo, I smoothed out the welds and covered the rod with cloth tape.

 

[SurfishinJim]

Gosh darnit that looks good.

 

[Tuba1973]

First let me say if that is what it looked like before the final fitting then it must be the tightest looking top out there. It looks great! I have a couple questions though. What is the height of the bows, and what is the angle from windshield to bow? What is the angle of the second one from the main rod on the bows? Well I guess I am just full of question tonight. it looks good..

 

[Bob Lennon]

Thanks guys. I don't know the hieght and certainly don't know the angles. The front hoop is more or less symetrical. The back hoop however is different on each side this was necessary because of the roll bar. It resulted from many hours of trial and error.

 

[Bob Lennon]

Just saw this on ebay. Could be interesting. link to soft top on ebay