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Discussion Starter #1
Thought I would post some news about the problematic #8 cylinder on the Coyote motors. I personally have not lost the #8 cylinder but it seems to be a fairly common issue among the Coyote race community. There seems to be some debate about just how pervasive the issue is with some differing opinions.

The #8 intake port lacks a water jacket and so it is this cylinder that runs hotter than all the others. This, combined with the fact that the cylinder head temp sensor is on the passenger side near #4 which doesn't pick up the temp on the #8. It infers that whatever the temp at #4 is, so must it be the same on all other cyclinders. The ECU sees no problems with head temp on #4 (and it is on Bank 1 pass side) but #8 on Bank 2 is actually running hotter and the ECU doesn't correct for it.

So when you are running a non-stock tune and pushing the engine (particularly full load runs or boosted runs), this problem can rear its head. The ECU doesn't know that the #8 Cylinder is hot and it doesn't pull timing and/or add fuel.

One fix is to tune around the known problem. With my Infinity ECU this is very easy to do and I was going to just pull a couple of degrees timing out of just #8 cylinder and add a little fuel trim to that cylinder as well. However, I'd lose a little power in this cylinder by tuning around the problem this way.

The other fix is to modify the coolant path to help equalize the temperature between #4 and #8 as well as promote coolant flow around the #8 cylinder. At the rear of the engine there are freeze plugs in the heads. MMR makes head mod that replaces these freeze plugs with coolant ports that are tied together with a hose going between them.

I am installing this mod now and I shouldn't need to tune around the #8 cylinder and should be able to keep the power up in this cylinder as well.

I can't say just how necessary either of these fixes are but I can say that based on my engine investment thus far, $200 is cheap insurance. After having lost one coyote motor (unrelated to this issue) a little over a year ago, I am extremely cautious.

I thought I'd pass along this info I came across. Picture is courtesy of MMR website.

Trevor
 

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Mustang Convert
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Can you describe the install? Is it as simple as drain some coolant, force out the freeze plugs, and seat new fittings (I'm assuming they are a force fit like a freeze plug).

Curious...

Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Can you describe the install? Is it as simple as drain some coolant, force out the freeze plugs, and seat new fittings (I'm assuming they are a force fit like a freeze plug).

Curious...

Kevin
Yes. It's that easy. I removed my plugs by taking a pointed punch and knocked the top side of the plug in. And then grabbed the edge with some vice grips and pulled it out. I did do it from the underside of the vehicle (up on the lift).

The new fittings seal with an o-ring and they are retained with a bolt that screws into a threaded boss on the back of the head.

Trevor
 

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Mustang Convert
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I've grenaded a blown 4.6 in my last Saleen due to detonation so these little things to avoid a repeat catch my attention as well.

Thanks for the tip!

Kevin
 

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The general consensus is that most of the #8 failures on 2011 coyotes were due to very aggressive tunes early on. I don't know why, fundamentally, the coyote isn't special, throw too much timing at it for too long, it will go boom, who knew lol? The Coyote tune has individual cylinder fueling/timing built in, so don't worry. Ford tuned these motors with widebands in each cylinder. They tuned each cylinder to work to its true potential. Whatever fuel and timing you command, there are multipliers that change these values slightly to make sure that each cylinder gets the right fuel and timing. Just don't go crazy with the tune and you will be fine, just like any other motor. I haven't noticed that many mustang owners do the cooling mod, but honestly it can't hurt, if you want to do it, go ahead, can't hurt, all I'm saying is the crop of early failures was due to poor tuning. Knock sensors are also there to help out if things go wrong, not fool proof, but they are there.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Since I'm not running the Ford PCM any longer, I can't rely on Ford's tune to solve the problem. I'm a little off the reservation since I'm using the AEM Infinity ECU. I heard that this was an early problem too that most tuners have figured out. So, for me, it's extra insurance. Thanks for the input.
 

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Man Cave Master Craftsman
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Hello Trevor,

I had considered this mod a few months back but now after reading your post I'm going to go ahead and order the part, it looks to be wise (and cheap) insurance for the sake of engine longevity.

Saul
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hello Trevor,

I had considered this mod a few months back but now after reading your post I'm going to go ahead and order the part, it looks to be wise (and cheap) insurance for the sake of engine longevity.

Saul
Since you are also running the Infinity (you don't get the luxury of the built-in Ford tuning fix) and your motor is boosted, I think doing the mod is a good move. I wish there was more science on just how much cooler cylinder 8 runs with this mod but intellectually it seems that this mod surely can't hurt and would seem to help. If not literally, it will help psychologically.
 

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The individual cylinder tuning isn't a bandaid. From a technical standpoint a V8 is composed of 8 individual motors, in other words every cylinder is an individual and behaves differently. Ford tunes these motors on an individual cylinder basis, because they have amazing tools and know how. Most likely they use 8 widebands, one for each primary, so they can monitor the distribution of air and fuel to each cylinder. Ford didn't tune the #8 cylinder conservatively to mask some sort of design issue, because there really isn't one, all they did was tune each cylinder to its true potential, something normal human beings can't do. The differences between each cylinders tuning is minor. Normal tuners can only tune bank to bank or 4 cylinders at a time, one wideband for each bank of the V8.
 

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here comes the dump question! So, if I understand well. its only necessary if someone want to make an aggressive tune? I mean;
1) if running AEM Infinity ECU but with Ford racing stock tune, do I need to make this mod?
2) Also, if I am using ford racing control pack, do I need it?

Thanks for sharing.
Hakeem
 

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A tune that is too aggressive will kill any cylinder on this motor, regardless of whether or not you have this mod. You don't want to push the limit with the tune in any motor, there's a sweet spot that any good tuner can find where you make power safely. If this mod is the only thing keeping your motor from actively detonating then your motor is constantly on the borderline of detonating anyways and the slightest change in fuel octane or operating conditions would kill your motor anyways, again your tune shouldn't be this aggressive. A motor will live a long and happy life without this mod or the individual cylinder tuning from Ford. All this mod improves does is cooling, so it's your call really. I wouldn't say it's necessary by any means. I imagine there's probably a 20 page long thread about this on mustang forums. We could debate this until we're blue in the face, but it's rare to see a coyote with this mod if that means anything. There's plenty of stock bottom end 600-700hp coyotes living happy without this mod. Roush doesn't do this, ford didn't do this on the Boss 302 or the aluminator motors. I'm not going to say it's a waste of money, I just think it could be considered a piece of mind thing that some people prefer to do. I'm trying to think of a similar example with another part, but can't think of anything at the moment.

No such thing as a stupid question, never be afraid to ask!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
here comes the dump question! So, if I understand well. its only necessary if someone want to make an aggressive tune? I mean;
1) if running AEM Infinity ECU but with Ford racing stock tune, do I need to make this mod?
2) Also, if I am using ford racing control pack, do I need it?

Thanks for sharing.
Hakeem
Hakeem, I thought I should clarify something for you. First, if you are running an AEM Infinity ECU then you won't be running the Ford Racing stock tune. The Ford Racing tune only lives on the Ford PCM/ECU. If you ditch that ECU in favor of an Infinity ECU then you will be running a tune that works on the Infinity ECU platform. That said, AEM provides a base tune for a stock coyote motor (2011-2014). Further, this base tune is quite conservative and will get the engine running safely out of the box. Translation, if you ran the Infinity stock tune you shouldn't need to worry about any detonation as the engine will not be operating close to or beyond it's stock limits.

My motor is an Aluminator XS (a more extreme variant of the stock Coyote with different cams, throttle body, intake, injectors, fuel type, etc.) and pushing my engine a beyond conservative requiring adjustments to the base tune to accommodate. If you are going to run a stock motor with a conservative tune then I don't think there is any need for the coolant head mod.

Also, if you are considering going with an Infinity ECU, be aware that it is a much more specialized/niche platform (racing world) that is better served to those who want to do their own tuning. If that's you then it's a great choice. However, if you have no interest in tuning it yourself then just be aware that you would be giving up a vast network of capable tuners with the Ford ECU through SCT or HP Tuners, etc.. There just isn't the large network of tuners to rely on with the Infinity. Hopefully that will change over time because it's a great product. But if you are willing to dive into tuning then the Infinity platform is great. It is completely open with no hidden tables and every aspect of the Coyote can be managed and controlled with this ECU.

Trevor
 

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Hakeem, I thought I should clarify something for you. First, if you are running an AEM Infinity ECU then you won't be running the Ford Racing stock tune. The Ford Racing tune only lives on the Ford PCM/ECU. If you ditch that ECU in favor of an Infinity ECU then you will be running a tune that works on the Infinity ECU platform. That said, AEM provides a base tune for a stock coyote motor (2011-2014). Further, this base tune is quite conservative and will get the engine running safely out of the box. Translation, if you ran the Infinity stock tune you shouldn't need to worry about any detonation as the engine will not be operating close to or beyond it's stock limits.

My motor is an Aluminator XS (a more extreme variant of the stock Coyote with different cams, throttle body, intake, injectors, fuel type, etc.) and pushing my engine a beyond conservative requiring adjustments to the base tune to accommodate. If you are going to run a stock motor with a conservative tune then I don't think there is any need for the coolant head mod.

Also, if you are considering going with an Infinity ECU, be aware that it is a much more specialized/niche platform (racing world) that is better served to those who want to do their own tuning. If that's you then it's a great choice. However, if you have no interest in tuning it yourself then just be aware that you would be giving up a vast network of capable tuners with the Ford ECU through SCT or HP Tuners, etc.. There just isn't the large network of tuners to rely on with the Infinity. Hopefully that will change over time because it's a great product. But if you are willing to dive into tuning then the Infinity platform is great. It is completely open with no hidden tables and every aspect of the Coyote can be managed and controlled with this ECU.

Trevor
+1, you lose a lot of the leg work that ford did with the control pack tune, but you gain some extreme capabilities, for instance revving past 8300rpm(Ford ecu can't do this). Also JPC Racing might be able to hook you up with a tune, they have quite a lot of experience with the infinity ecu on coyotes. Their shop car has been in the 7's with it and a few more of their customer builds have had them I'm pretty sure. I would definitely agree that you lose a majority of the tuning network out there by going with something more specialized like the AEM.
 

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Curious George
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Yes. It's that easy. I removed my plugs by taking a pointed punch and knocked the top side of the plug in. And then grabbed the edge with some vice grips and pulled it out. I did do it from the underside of the vehicle (up on the lift).

The new fittings seal with an o-ring and they are retained with a bolt that screws into a threaded boss on the back of the head.

Trevor
this will be a LOT easier when the engine arrives on a pallet :cool:
 
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