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Discussion Starter #1
I’m also patiently waiting for the Gen 3 Coyote. Edwardb and I have been talking about price and release date but not fitment. Yes, we know it will cost more but if u think it’s just going to be an oil pan swap think again. Ford changed the oil pan and oil pump for 2018. It’s a GT350 style pump that requires a “slip in” pickup tube versus the previous 2-bolt GT pickup tube. The fix appears to be redesigning a new oil pickup tube for the Roadster oil pan OR replacing the 2018 oil pump housing with an earlier and nearly identical Gen 2 housing. Once replaced the pan and pickup from a Gen 2 will fit. Don’t forget to replace the crank bolt as it’s a one time use. Note, by removing the timing chains, crank balancer, and installing a new oil pump the engine warranty will be 0. I’m just not sure what other “surprise” changes the 2018 has in store for us. But keep posting updates here.
 

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Great... Haven't uncovered that one yet. Any chance to modify the existing Moroso pickup tube? Or contact Moroso to see what their plans are for a new version? Changing out the pump and the related teardown is a pretty big deal.

Finding some other differences too. Like the flywheel and clutch. Trying to sort that out now.

The same (so far): Exhaust headers, radiator connections, motor mounts, A/C compressor mount.
 

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Just posted this in my build thread:

Have spent some hours since checking how things fit after receiving the Gen 3 Coyote yesterday. This is where the excitement of doing something new meets with reality. Still a long ways to go, but thought I’d post what I’ve learned so far. Some things seem OK. But a couple of challenges. Open to suggestions here!!!

First the good. Energy Suspension motor mounts, QuickTime bell housing, A/C compressor, Moroso oil pan bolt pattern, all fit OK based on actual assembly check. Exhaust headers, starter motor, alternator, location for KRC power steering, radiator and heater and PCV hose locations and connections all LOOK exactly the same comparing to the Gen 2 Coyote in #8674. Obviously I’ll be checking with real parts once received. But looks OK for now. I’ll also mention I studied the vacuum connections on the CMCV setup, and it appears to be connected to a vacuum source right from the factory. I'll need to confirm, but looks like this won’t be something that needs to be addressed on the Gen 3. This has tripped up and confused a lot of builders before. Now hopefully no longer. I removed the oil cooler, like was necessary before. That also is exactly the same needing the shorter oil filter adapter. I also learned from my last build and caught all the oil in a brand new 5 gallon plastic pail with a sealing lid. Just over 2-1/2 gallons drained out. I’ll put it back in once the engine is installed. That’s $50 or so of 5w-20 synthetic oil that I didn’t make allowances to save the last time. Lesson learned.

Now for the challenges. I’ve uncovered two (so far…) and both are relatively significant.

1. The dual mass flywheel (already installed from the factory) and twin disc clutch (purchased separately) new with the Gen 3 Coyote will NOT work with my already purchased QuickTime bell housing and T-56 transmission. The input shaft on the T-56 is 4.5625 inches from the face of the bell housing to where the shaft would be against the race of the pilot bearing. With the QuickTime RM-8080 bell housing on the engine, that same distance with the dual mass flywheel is 3.375 inches. A difference of 1.1875 and no possible way to work. The RM-8080 bell is the only option for the Coyote + T-56 combination at this time. The GM version of the T-56 (the only other one available) is almost an inch longer input than the Ford version I have. So no relief on either front right now. My plan at the moment is to remove the dual mass flywheel and replace with a M-6375-M50 billet flywheel like I used on #8674. I’m HOPING the crankshaft has the same 8-bolt connection underneath the currently installed dual mass flywheel and the usual pocket for the pilot bearing. The bolts are large Torx heads that I don’t have a bit for. I’ll get to the store tomorrow and get them off. Holding my breath. I’m happy with the Ford Performance billet flywheel and clutch (dual friction Centerforce part) in #8674, so as long as it fits I’ll be OK with it. Maybe the dual mass flywheel has some eBay or Craigslist value.

2. Like most everyone doing Coyote builds, I used the low profile Moroso 20570 with Moroso 24570 pickup on #8674. Had the same parts ready to go and now have found Ford has changed the oil pump on the Gen 3 Coyote. No longer uses a bolt-on pickup but instead a slip-in fitting that’s part of the new composite oil pan. Additionally, the new oil pan has the windage tray/pan gasket as part of the pan where it was separate before. Easy enough to buy and install the windage tray/gasket. Not so easy on the pickup. I just sent a message to Moroso asking if they have plans to offer a new/updated pickup. Not optimistic, at least in the short term, but see what happens. Might be possible to modify the current Moroso piece, but haven’t studied that yet. Need to proceed with caution here as an improper connection would quickly destroy the engine. I'm going to leave the stock pan on the engine when I do my initial mock-up, so I'll see just how far it hangs below the frame. Expecting that to be a no-go, but I'll check. So no answer on this one yet. Here are couple pictures.

Current Moroso parts with Gen 3 oil pan.


Underside of Gen 3 engine showing new pump and pickup.

 

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Discussion Starter #4
The oil pickup stabilizing leg mount has also changed between Gen 2-3. The best and easiest fix would be a new designed pickup tube that merged the 2018 oil pump housing with the shallower 2017 Moroso oil pan. It’s not a show stopper more of a show delayer.
 

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The oil pickup stabilizing leg mount has also changed between Gen 2-3. The best and easiest fix would be a new designed pickup tube that merged the 2018 oil pump housing with the shallower 2017 Moroso oil pan. It’s not a show stopper more of a show delayer.
Reached out to Moroso and heard from them today. They are planning to release a new version of the pickup. No mention of timing, so I asked about that in a follow-up. I'm guessing it's not going to be in time for my build. I'm probably going to modify the existing pickup. Not a difficult fabrication job. Just updated my build thread with this plus the dual mass flywheel.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
MMR (Modular Motorsports Racing) already has an oil pump pickup tube available that converts the 2018 Coyote oil pump (GT350) to a Gen 2 Coyote pan. After talking to them they said they could convert their pickup tube to fit just about any pan (Moroso).

Big companies plan in years...small companies plan in weeks.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Just found out, according to a Ford Engineer, the 2018 Coyote uses a “steel” lower timing chain crank sprocket compared to the previous Gen 1 & 2 “powdered metal” gear. That’s great news. Oil pump gears remain unchanged.

Also, last week I received the Gen 2 main bearing cap stud ($3.31). Had to use one of my special sources as the entire country was back ordered. Ford should fill those back orders soon. Make sure u get the right one. I’m 95% this is correct but...I’ll know when I get it apart.
 

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Just found out, according to a Ford Engineer, the 2018 Coyote uses a “steel” lower timing chain crank sprocket compared to the previous Gen 1 & 2 “powdered metal” gear. That’s great news. Oil pump gears remain unchanged.

Also, last week I received the Gen 2 main bearing cap stud ($3.31). Had to use one of my special sources as the entire country was back ordered. Ford should fill those back orders soon. Make sure u get the right one. I’m 95% this is correct but...I’ll know when I get it apart.
That is the right part, according to my sources at Ford. Confirmed yesterday. I'm supposed to have the parts today or Monday latest, and will confirm with actual assembly. The plain bearing cap bolt on the Gen 3 Coyote needs to be replaced with these three parts:

BR3Z-6345-A stud

N806180-S2 spacer

N605904-S bolt
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Just received the new aluminum Moroso oil pan and pickup from Mike Forte. This thing is beautiful! The welds look great.... Sure it weighs half of what the steel Coyote pan weighs but what I wanted was the massive oil cooling heatsink that all that aluminum provides.
Mike doesn’t have these listed on his website but he has them.

-Gen2 Coyote aluminum oil pan
 

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Just received the new aluminum Moroso oil pan and pickup from Mike Forte. This thing is beautiful! The welds look great.... Sure it weighs half of what the steel Coyote pan weighs but what I wanted was the massive oil cooling heatsink that all that aluminum provides.
Mike doesn’t have these listed on his website but he has them.

-Gen2 Coyote aluminum oil pan
Looks exactly like the steel version, just aluminum. So you think it's going to provide a better heat sink than the steel version? Interesting. The Coyote is a very cool running engine in my experience, with the temp very controlled. Probably the main advantage is that it's lighter.

Did you also get a revised oil pick up tube, e.g. for the Gen 3 oil pump? Interested in seeing a picture of that if you did.
 

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Gen 3 Coyote CMCV Plumbing

Just posted this in my build thread: Ford added Charge Motion Control Valves (CMCV) to the Gen 2 Coyote when it was released in 2015. Also sometimes referred to as Intake Manifold Runner Controls (IMRC), which were used on some versions of the previous mod motors. But apparently this time around they are serving a different purpose, so technically not the same thing. According to Ford literature “…charge motion control valves… partially close off port flow at lower engine speeds. This increases the air charge tumble and swirl for improved air-fuel mixing, resulting in better fuel economy, idle stability, and lower emissions.”

It was common in former times to lock these out. Also common today with the Coyote by the performance crowd. But if you do, you’ll need a custom tune otherwise the PCM will throw trouble codes. I’m fine with leaving them, as I did on the Gen 2 Coyote in #8674. But out of the crate the vacuum required is not plumbed. There have been several threads and lots of posts about this, including from me. It was relatively simple to do, but still caused lots of discussion. Ford didn’t help by changing the plumbing slightly in later versions of the Gen 2. There’s also been some discussion about whether the CMCV function is even active in the special crate motor PCM tune. What I can say is (1) if you don’t plumb them you will get trouble codes (personal experience) and (2) when I reviewed the log files while working with Lund Racing on the custom tune in #8674, I could clearly see they were being commanded. I can’t confirm whether this was from the original tune or from Lund’s custom tune. But regardless they were in use. For whatever reason, which I don’t understand to this day, neither Factory Five or Ford Performance address the CMCV function in their instructions.

So with this as background, now the Gen 3 Coyote in my Coupe build. The Gen 3 Coyote has a brand new intake manifold. Side note: It apparently is a nice performance upgrade. Many are fitting the 2018 Gen 3 intake onto previous generation Coyotes with good results. The Gen 3 does still have the CMCV function. But the plumbing is changed. Perhaps because of the Direct Injection (DI) on the Gen 3 Coyote which takes up real estate under the intake that used to be open, there are no longer any vacuum or vent hoses from the back of the intake. Everything is on the front. Additionally, the Gen 3 vents the vacuum motors to atmosphere, like later versions of the Gen 2. There’s no vent tube to the intake like on early Gen 2’s, including mine in #8674.

So let’s get down to it. Here’s the intake area on my Gen 3 Coyote, with the various connections annotated and explained. I’ll cover more than the CMCV and vacuum required, just for information and clarity:


A = Heater hose connections
B = Upper radiator hose connection
C = Lower radiator hose connection
D and E = Connections to coolant expansion tank. Note: Capped if using Factory Five instructed T-filler and overflow tank.
F = Vacuum connection for CMCV function. This replaces the similar connection that was on the back of the Gen 2 Coyote.
G = Right side PCV connection.
H = Main vacuum port. This connects to a manifold setup in the Mustang (not included with the crate motor) which supplies vacuum to the CMCV plus the power brakes.
I = Vacuum port for evaporative emissions canister purge valve. The 2018 intake no longer has the purge valve as part of the assembly like before. It’s separate and not included with the crate motor. The only thing left is the vacuum connection. More on this later.

At the back of the intake, two things. At the top of the picture is where the system vents. To atmosphere like later generation Gen 2’s. At the bottom of the picture is the vacuum source. It's connected to item F in the previous picture. Based on the way it acted when I was testing, I suspect there’s an internal reservoir like the Gen 2’s. But I don’t have a source that confirms. Regardless, it’s a direct connection.


So, armed with that information, the vacuum connection to activate the CMCV function on the Gen 3 Coyote appears to be as simple as making a single connection between one of the two vacuum sources at the front of the intake and the vacuum connection for the CMCV. I chose to use the smaller vacuum connection, which is used for the purge valve in a stock setup as already mentioned. But since there’s no purge valve here, and I had a connector that already fit, I used that one and capped the larger vacuum source. Note I removed the throttle body and confirmed both vacuum sources are open into the intake. So for this purpose I believe they are interchangeable.

The other consideration is the vacuum signal for the fuel regulator. Both the Ford Performance and Factory Five instructions show using a fuel pressure regulator with a vacuum signal reference. Some builds use the GM style regulator back by the fuel tank, which is fixed and doesn’t have provision for a vacuum reference signal. Apparently it works fine. But, on a side note, the Ford Performance instructions for the Gen 3 Coyote say to set the fuel regulator at 65 PSI. Clearly more than the 55 PSI for the previous versions, and more than the fixed 58 PSI of the GM style regulator. Additionally, some custom tuners will tell you to remove the vacuum reference line, plug it, and let the regulator vent to atmosphere. Lund Racing told me that for #8674 and I’ve heard the same from at least one other tuner. Not sure about any of that. For my build with the Gen 3 I’m using a typical Aeromotive regulator, will set it for 65 PSI as instructed, and will plumb the vacuum line. If the vacuum reference signal isn't required in the future, easy to remove. So this means a “T” or “Y” connection in the vacuum line.

So I came up with this combination of parts to connect everything, mostly with parts I already had on hand. It’s not elegant, but it should do the job.


Installed, looks like this. As you can see, I capped the larger vacuum connection as mentioned before. Also all the other connections (heater hoses, PCV, radiator, etc.) are now completed.


Also see that I didn't follow-up with the updated oil pan pickup I fabricated. Used the oil pump end from the Modular Motorports piece the pickup end from the Moroso piece. Installed and done.


All buttoned up and hope to not see again anytime soon.

 

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S motor comes with a
Just received the new aluminum Moroso oil pan and pickup from Mike Forte. This thing is beautiful! The welds look great.... Sure it weighs half of what the steel Coyote pan weighs but what I wanted was the massive oil cooling heatsink that all that aluminum provides.
Mike doesn’t have these listed on his website but he has them.

-Gen2 Coyote aluminum oil pan
Just posted this in my build thread:

Have spent some hours since checking how things fit after receiving the Gen 3 Coyote yesterday. This is where the excitement of doing something new meets with reality. Still a long ways to go, but thought I’d post what I’ve learned so far. Some things seem OK. But a couple of challenges. Open to suggestions here!!!

First the good. Energy Suspension motor mounts, QuickTime bell housing, A/C compressor, Moroso oil pan bolt pattern, all fit OK based on actual assembly check. Exhaust headers, starter motor, alternator, location for KRC power steering, radiator and heater and PCV hose locations and connections all LOOK exactly the same comparing to the Gen 2 Coyote in #8674. Obviously I’ll be checking with real parts once received. But looks OK for now. I’ll also mention I studied the vacuum connections on the CMCV setup, and it appears to be connected to a vacuum source right from the factory. I'll need to confirm, but looks like this won’t be something that needs to be addressed on the Gen 3. This has tripped up and confused a lot of builders before. Now hopefully no longer. I removed the oil cooler, like was necessary before. That also is exactly the same needing the shorter oil filter adapter. I also learned from my last build and caught all the oil in a brand new 5 gallon plastic pail with a sealing lid. Just over 2-1/2 gallons drained out. I’ll put it back in once the engine is installed. That’s $50 or so of 5w-20 synthetic oil that I didn’t make allowances to save the last time. Lesson learned.

Now for the challenges. I’ve uncovered two (so far…) and both are relatively significant.

1. The dual mass flywheel (already installed from the factory) and twin disc clutch (purchased separately) new with the Gen 3 Coyote will NOT work with my already purchased QuickTime bell housing and T-56 transmission. The input shaft on the T-56 is 4.5625 inches from the face of the bell housing to where the shaft would be against the race of the pilot bearing. With the QuickTime RM-8080 bell housing on the engine, that same distance with the dual mass flywheel is 3.375 inches. A difference of 1.1875 and no possible way to work. The RM-8080 bell is the only option for the Coyote + T-56 combination at this time. The GM version of the T-56 (the only other one available) is almost an inch longer input than the Ford version I have. So no relief on either front right now. My plan at the moment is to remove the dual mass flywheel and replace with a M-6375-M50 billet flywheel like I used on #8674. I’m HOPING the crankshaft has the same 8-bolt connection underneath the currently installed dual mass flywheel and the usual pocket for the pilot bearing. The bolts are large Torx heads that I don’t have a bit for. I’ll get to the store tomorrow and get them off. Holding my breath. I’m happy with the Ford Performance billet flywheel and clutch (dual friction Centerforce part) in #8674, so as long as it fits I’ll be OK with it. Maybe the dual mass flywheel has some eBay or Craigslist value.

2. Like most everyone doing Coyote builds, I used the low profile Moroso 20570 with Moroso 24570 pickup on #8674. Had the same parts ready to go and now have found Ford has changed the oil pump on the Gen 3 Coyote. No longer uses a bolt-on pickup but instead a slip-in fitting that’s part of the new composite oil pan. Additionally, the new oil pan has the windage tray/pan gasket as part of the pan where it was separate before. Easy enough to buy and install the windage tray/gasket. Not so easy on the pickup. I just sent a message to Moroso asking if they have plans to offer a new/updated pickup. Not optimistic, at least in the short term, but see what happens. Might be possible to modify the current Moroso piece, but haven’t studied that yet. Need to proceed with caution here as an improper connection would quickly destroy the engine. I'm going to leave the stock pan on the engine when I do my initial mock-up, so I'll see just how far it hangs below the frame. Expecting that to be a no-go, but I'll check. So no answer on this one yet. Here are couple pictures.

Current Moroso parts with Gen 3 oil pan.


Underside of Gen 3 engine showing new pump and pickup.

Am I going to need a win
Just posted this in my build thread:

Have spent some hours since checking how things fit after receiving the Gen 3 Coyote yesterday. This is where the excitement of doing something new meets with reality. Still a long ways to go, but thought I’d post what I’ve learned so far. Some things seem OK. But a couple of challenges. Open to suggestions here!!!

First the good. Energy Suspension motor mounts, QuickTime bell housing, A/C compressor, Moroso oil pan bolt pattern, all fit OK based on actual assembly check. Exhaust headers, starter motor, alternator, location for KRC power steering, radiator and heater and PCV hose locations and connections all LOOK exactly the same comparing to the Gen 2 Coyote in #8674. Obviously I’ll be checking with real parts once received. But looks OK for now. I’ll also mention I studied the vacuum connections on the CMCV setup, and it appears to be connected to a vacuum source right from the factory. I'll need to confirm, but looks like this won’t be something that needs to be addressed on the Gen 3. This has tripped up and confused a lot of builders before. Now hopefully no longer. I removed the oil cooler, like was necessary before. That also is exactly the same needing the shorter oil filter adapter. I also learned from my last build and caught all the oil in a brand new 5 gallon plastic pail with a sealing lid. Just over 2-1/2 gallons drained out. I’ll put it back in once the engine is installed. That’s $50 or so of 5w-20 synthetic oil that I didn’t make allowances to save the last time. Lesson learned.

Now for the challenges. I’ve uncovered two (so far…) and both are relatively significant.

1. The dual mass flywheel (already installed from the factory) and twin disc clutch (purchased separately) new with the Gen 3 Coyote will NOT work with my already purchased QuickTime bell housing and T-56 transmission. The input shaft on the T-56 is 4.5625 inches from the face of the bell housing to where the shaft would be against the race of the pilot bearing. With the QuickTime RM-8080 bell housing on the engine, that same distance with the dual mass flywheel is 3.375 inches. A difference of 1.1875 and no possible way to work. The RM-8080 bell is the only option for the Coyote + T-56 combination at this time. The GM version of the T-56 (the only other one available) is almost an inch longer input than the Ford version I have. So no relief on either front right now. My plan at the moment is to remove the dual mass flywheel and replace with a M-6375-M50 billet flywheel like I used on #8674. I’m HOPING the crankshaft has the same 8-bolt connection underneath the currently installed dual mass flywheel and the usual pocket for the pilot bearing. The bolts are large Torx heads that I don’t have a bit for. I’ll get to the store tomorrow and get them off. Holding my breath. I’m happy with the Ford Performance billet flywheel and clutch (dual friction Centerforce part) in #8674, so as long as it fits I’ll be OK with it. Maybe the dual mass flywheel has some eBay or Craigslist value.

2. Like most everyone doing Coyote builds, I used the low profile Moroso 20570 with Moroso 24570 pickup on #8674. Had the same parts ready to go and now have found Ford has changed the oil pump on the Gen 3 Coyote. No longer uses a bolt-on pickup but instead a slip-in fitting that’s part of the new composite oil pan. Additionally, the new oil pan has the windage tray/pan gasket as part of the pan where it was separate before. Easy enough to buy and install the windage tray/gasket. Not so easy on the pickup. I just sent a message to Moroso asking if they have plans to offer a new/updated pickup. Not optimistic, at least in the short term, but see what happens. Might be possible to modify the current Moroso piece, but haven’t studied that yet. Need to proceed with caution here as an improper connection would quickly destroy the engine. I'm going to leave the stock pan on the engine when I do my initial mock-up, so I'll see just how far it hangs below the frame. Expecting that to be a no-go, but I'll check. So no answer on this one yet. Here are couple pictures.

Current Moroso parts with Gen 3 oil pan.


Underside of Gen 3 engine showing new pump and pickup.

Am I going to need a different windage tray for the gen 3 and the raing oil pan, even though the motor already has a tray already?
 

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For the Gen 3 Coyote, the oil pan gasket/windage tray is part of the newly designed (for the Gen 3) composite oil pan. So when replacing the stock composite pan with the Moroso pan, it's necessary to buy one. For mine, bought the Gen 2 BR3Z-6710-A Oil pan gasket, windage tray from Tasca Parts. Fits perfectly. Little over $50. Available elsewhere too. It's a standard Ford part.
 

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For the Gen 3 Coyote, the oil pan gasket/windage tray is part of the newly designed (for the Gen 3) composite oil pan. So when replacing the stock composite pan with the Moroso pan, it's necessary to buy one. For mine, bought the Gen 2 BR3Z-6710-A Oil pan gasket, windage tray from Tasca Parts. Fits perfectly. Little over $50. Available elsewhere too. It's a standard Ford part.
Cool, thx.
Does it have to be a moroso (there are way cheaper ones)? How deep is yours at the sump?
 

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Cool, thx.
Does it have to be a moroso (there are way cheaper ones)? How deep is yours at the sump?
I've only used the Moroso pan, and is the most common from what I've seen. I know Canton has one too, but it's about the same price. The pan can't be any more than 4-1/2 inches deep to stay above the frame on both the Roadster and the Coupe. Also, the pickup has to be changed to match the lower profile pan. For the Gen 3, the connection is different than previous versions. No longer bolted on. It's a slip-in fit. The Moroso 24577 piece is the only one I personally know about. Agreed, these aren't cheap parts. Just don't do anything that would hang below the frame or not keep the oil in the pickup like these pans. Or it's going to get even more expensive.
 

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I've only used the Moroso pan, and is the most common from what I've seen. I know Canton has one too, but it's about the same price. The pan can't be any more than 4-1/2 inches deep to stay above the frame on both the Roadster and the Coupe. Also, the pickup has to be changed to match the lower profile pan. For the Gen 3, the connection is different than previous versions. No longer bolted on. It's a slip-in fit. The Moroso 24577 piece is the only one I personally know about. Agreed, these aren't cheap parts. Just don't do anything that would hang below the frame or not keep the oil in the pickup like these pans. Or it's going to get even more expensive.
Seems i have to take it huh? :)
Is it true that I have to install the engine without the pan mounted? I guess thats different in the Backdraft huh?
 

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Seems i have to take it huh? :)
Is it true that I have to install the engine without the pan mounted? I guess thats different in the Backdraft huh?
The parts I recommended (gasket/windage tray, pan, pickup) all fit the Coyote which I know from personal experience. I don't however know how they may/may not fit in a Backdraft, if that's what you're asking. This is a Factory Five forum. A few may have Backdraft knowledge. Most, including me, don't.
 

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Seems i have to take it huh? :)
Is it true that I have to install the engine without the pan mounted? I guess thats different in the Backdraft huh?
I believe most replace the oil pan long before installing the engine .... is there a reason Backdrafts would not allow the Oil Pan on the engine until installation?


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