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Trevor, thanks for the kind words. The person that needs the props is you man! The effort that you put into both of these projects is nothing less than astonishing!

Guys, you would not believe how well Trevors car runs with the new ITB setup. Its incredibly smooth but so freaking strong. As best I can tell, he is giving up NOTHING to the Intakes he has run in the past. We went on a 30+ mile log and tun session a few weeks ago and I was blown away on how well the car ran. I really have to give it up to Trevor for the knowledge and skills he has developed in setting up and tuning the AEM Infinity system.

Its so impressive how well the two cars run with ITBs and the Infinity system. All you hear from people is how tough it is to get ITBs tuned and from my experience, its really not a big deal on the Infinity. I think it has to do with the Throttle based load, but MAP based fuel. Im running throttle based load as well on my stock Coyote and it runs like a champ.

The only real issue I see with it... is the lust that developed after seeing it installed on Trevors Aluminator. Its just wicked looking!
 

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Discussion Starter #262 (Edited)
Knock Sensors - 302 small block

With most of the tuning all sorted, we began working on the finer parts of the tune such as Knock Control. @djfong reported a flat spot under certain conditions where it felt like the engine was cutting out. Upon further analysis, I discovered that we were getting a bunch of false knock that was pulling timing (up to 8*) and adding fuel (up to 14%) causing the engine to fall flat (knock control is sure working nicely and doing what it is supposed to). With one sensor picking up bank 1 and the other knock sensor picking up bank 2, I noticed that cylinders 1 and 5 had the most false knock and were the cylinders that were registering noise above the threshold floor. These are the front most cylinders on each side of the engine. Perhaps the running accessories were causing the additional engine noise. The white line represents the knock floor threshold. Anything above the white line indicates knock and will pull timing and add fuel based on the tune strategy.


On my Coyote setup, the engine came with knock sensors and AEM had them already tuned in the base cal. With these two small block 302s we retrofitted flat/non-resonance Bosch style knock sensor to the engines which now requires specific tuning of which I have never done. So new territory with lots of learning. Anyhow, our first attempt we had the knock sensors mounted to the rear of each head. We decided that wasn't the best place for the sensors. I then fabricated a knock sensor mounting stud to replace the rearward motor mount bolt going into the block to attach the knock sensor (KS) there. It is almost perfectly centered both vertically and horizontally on the block. My hope was that this would alleviate the variance in engine noise and balance out the signal. It cleaned it up a bit but didn't really resolve the issue. But I think it is located in a better spot and doesn't seem to pickup as much valve-train noise.


So with that, it was on to the actual tuning of the sensor to see what that would produce. Having done some research it looked like I needed to focus on setting up the filtering properly to address the Bandpass Center Frequency, Amplifier Gain, and lastly the Integrator Time. The Center Frequency was pretty easy to figure out (Thank you Google). Simply determine the engine bore size and plug it into the formula and voila... we came up with a center frequency of 5.64 kHz. Now on to the Gain and Time settings. This was done by trial and error. Here you can see in the first pic the Gain set extremely high. And the second pic the Gain set very low. Clearly we need to do more work and I don't like the fact that cylinders 7 & 8 register virtually no noise yet 1 & 5 are super noisy.

Higher Gain

Lower Gain

I'll report back later when I make some more discoveries and get these sensors better sorted. Until then...
 

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Discussion Starter #263
Knock Control - Harmonics

I am still struggling to get the Knock control sorted out for these 30+ year old small blocks. Retrofitting newer technology on these older engines is proving to be more problematic than I anticipated. I have discovered that there is a lot of science in trying to properly detect knock on an engine. More than my feeble mind can really absorb.

So this is where we are at. I learned that the bore size dictates what the "fundamental" harmonic will be for a given engine (or close to it). But then learned that there are these multiple harmonics of the fundamental (2nd harmonic, 3rd harmonic, etc.). Kind of like an echo, it fades on each replication. So if the fundamental, in this case, is 5.64 kHz then the 2nd harmonic is double the first (11.28 kHz) and so on. Further, in trying to quiet down the false knock I learned that you can tune for say the second harmonic and it will only pick up the noisiest signals as it is a bit muted further increasing the signal to noise ratio and separating engine noise from real knock. I actually tuned for the 3rd harmonic (16.92 kHz). This certainly helped and between this, relocating the knock sensors and tuning on the amplifier gain, I was able to make it work. But I still see that cylinders 1 & 5 are noisier than the rest and this still bugs me.

With the help of AEM, they have suggested that I may not be getting enough resolution due to the 4 tooth crank pattern we used with the dual sync distributors which gives us only one timing reference tooth per cylinder causing the low resolution. This translates to 90 degrees between cylinders, and I have a 0* to 50* after TDC as the windowing angle in the Infinity software. It is in this window that the Knock sensor will effectively turn on. This becomes difficult with such low resolution to find where the 50 degrees is since the engine speed varies between these very largely spaced timing references. So the solution would be to tighten up the timing referencing to tighten up the variance in engine speed between each sample thus refining the resolution and thus better predicting our window. To do this we would need to step up to a higher resolution timing pattern such as a 36-1 crank trigger.

There are a couple more things that I am going to try before pursuing a different crank trigger setup. And even at that, this would be dependent on whether or not the car owners want to go through this extra work for knock control.

Learning a lot, having a blast. Stay "tuned".
 

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Discussion Starter #264
Knock Control - 302 SB (cont'd)

After a bunch of datalogging and tuning (17 datalogs later), I have finally been able to tune around the noisy #5 cylinder. The better solution is to resolve the crank trigger resolution, but that is not an option right now. Therefore, I have used the Infinity software to tune different knock floor thresholds for each cylinder. So for Cylinder #5, I raised the knock floor threshold higher to accommodate the noisy cylinder. I also bumped up Cylinder #1 threshold a bit since that cylinder was also a little noisy. You can see in the pic that there are different threshold floors now established based on the cylinder #. Finally, with this tuned, I was able to turn on knock control for safety and now we can get back to the task at hand which is to now start putting more ignition timing back in to start building power. Once we start seeing knock move above the thresholds, we will back the timing off and call it a day. This project is almost in the bag.

 

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Hi Trevor,

Its nice to see you wrapping up! great job!

I will start working on the car somewhere next week. after I finished all the wiring and other things. I remember I read a post here about Ignition sync and how coyote engine doesnt have a mark (but couldnt find it). is it right?

So if yes how did you do it? and is it something vital or I just can ignore it?

Thanks
Hakeem
 

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Discussion Starter #266
Hakeem,

You remember correctly. I outlined this in post #4.

There are no timing marks on the Coyote motor. You would have to find TDC on cylinder 1 and then mark your damper/balancer accordingly. Then you could do an ignition sync.

Is it really required? I would say no. While I found my engine not in sync with the ECU, it was only off by 1/2 degree which is negligible. So for the extra effort, I was able to get it synced with the benefit of a mere 1/2 degree more accuracy.

All the ignition sync does is teach the ECU where the timing is on the motor. The Coyote base tune that AEM provides should be very close thus the need for doing the ignition sync I would say is entirely optional, unless you are OCD in which case it is mandatory.
 

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Hakeem,

You remember correctly. I outlined this in post #4.

There are no timing marks on the Coyote motor. You would have to find TDC on cylinder 1 and then mark your damper/balancer accordingly. Then you could do an ignition sync.

Is it really required? I would say no. While I found my engine not in sync with the ECU, it was only off by 1/2 degree which is negligible. So for the extra effort, I was able to get it synced with the benefit of a mere 1/2 degree more accuracy.

All the ignition sync does is teach the ECU where the timing is on the motor. The Coyote base tune that AEM provides should be very close thus the need for doing the ignition sync I would say is entirely optional, unless you are OCD in which case it is mandatory.

:grin2::grin2: I had to google OCD but I think I am good. I will just ignore it for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #268
And yet another AEM Infinity Install

Looking for my next project, I began trolling around. After a bit of a search, what did I find?

Yep, a GT40 Replica.

@David Borden owns this car and it has been sitting in his shop for sometime waiting patiently for its turn in the hopper. But with David having so many projects and so little time, the patience of this 'ol gal was running thin. She wants to be on the road. With an easy nudge and a slight push, David agreed to allow me to step in and assist. Before you know it, we were freeing up space in his shop and dragging her over to my shop. The goal while domiciling under my roof is to get the electrical all wired up and, yep, this is what we will be wiring up to keep everything sorted.

AEM Infinity ECU

This will make for my 4th Infinity install. Much of the electrical is already sorted so I'm hoping we can make quick work of this project.

I'll post updates here with anything we learn or hurdles we face in trying to wire up and tune this beast. Also, with two EFI stack injection setups tuned on the Infinity under our belts, I'm hoping this one will go equally as smooth.

Stay "tuned"!
 

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Looking for my next project, I began trolling around ..... With an easy nudge and a slight push, David agreed to allow me to step in and assist.
I'll gladly let you stay busy by 'letting you help' me with my Coyodoo build :grin2:

Also, has anyone asked you your thoughts on how to control the CMCV with the 2015+ Coyote and Voodoo manifolds?
 

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Discussion Starter #270
I'll gladly let you stay busy by 'letting you help' me with my Coyodoo build :grin2:

Also, has anyone asked you your thoughts on how to control the CMCV with the 2015+ Coyote and Voodoo manifolds?
Haha. Your Coyodoo engine project looks fun.

As for your question, the Infinity may be able to control the valves. It really depends on how the valves are actuated to open and close. My understanding is that they are RPM based and are wide open without vacuum. But this may be an indirect result of say a throttle based position sensor, or perhaps a combination of vacuum and engine speed. If you could figure out how they trigger (what the inputs are) and how they operate, you may be able to use either a low side or high side GPO (General Purpose Output) to trigger the CMCV actuators. You would need to know if they are just an open/close or if they open and close on a more variable slope like a throttle plate or a PWM IAC valve. If you could tell me what the trigger inputs are and how they open and close, I could then tell you if they could be setup to be controlled with the Infinity. The Infinity is very, very flexible and I think all we are trying to do is actuate the solenoids based on a particular condition.

I'm in to help if you can provide some research and details.

The bigger problem with the Gen 2 and the Infinity has more to do with the variable cam timing phaser/actuators. There was a change to these in 2015 and AEM currently does not support the 2015+ Coyote in stock form. You would have to revert your engine back to an '11-'14 model to retain the Ti-VCT technology or abandon the VCT all together by locking out the cams and running just off of the crank trigger. Which this defeats the purpose of running a Coyote IMO. The Ti-VCT is one of the coolest features on the Coyote motor.

To revert a 2015 Coyote to maintain the Ti-VCT and work with the Infinity, you would most likely have to replace the cams, phasers and timing chains to the '11-14 variant. My hope and expectation is that AEM will support the 2015+ Coyote engines at some point in the future.

Thoughts to consider.
 

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Help! No start

I have tried to start the car today but it didnt start. Starter work, fuel pressure almost 60psi, sensors looks like they are functioning but not sure if correctly! numbers are changing when i start but I am not sure whats wrong! I did a 10 sec log while starting I can send to whoever is interested in finding out whats the problem.

Thanks
hakeem
 

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Discussion Starter #272
I have tried to start the car today but it didnt start. Starter work, fuel pressure almost 60psi, sensors looks like they are functioning but not sure if correctly! numbers are changing when i start but I am not sure whats wrong! I did a 10 sec log while starting I can send to whoever is interested in finding out whats the problem.

Thanks
hakeem
Hakeem,

Send me the log and I will take a look. The first thing we will check is to make sure your sync state is changing from 0 to "1".





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
 

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Yeaah! the sync state changes to 1.

I noticed the following but not sure if its the issue or not:

1) just under the sync state there are injector and ignition cycle they dont change to 1.
2) the calibration is set to VE and MAP but I dont have MAP sensor...
3) I only installed the headers not full exhaust. not sure if o2 sensors are reading more oxygen and dont start.


hakeem
 

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Discussion Starter #274
I got your log file. Regarding your comments, you may very well have troubleshooted (troubleshot?) the problem. 1) The open headers shouldn't affect the running of the engine so drastically, so no concern there. It would at least start and idle. 2) Excellent news on the sync state. This means your crank and cam trigger pattern is good and receiving the signals properly which means it knows when and how to fire your ignition. However, not having a MAP sensor installed is definitely a problem. Without it, the computer does not know what the air/fuel mixture should be. Thus, the ECU will not be able to provide proper fueling to the engine. The air/fuel mixture is primarily controlled by the VE table (there are fuel trims that accompany the VE table, but the VE table is the core fueling model used). And the VE table is the primary input to how much fuel the injectors feed.

A missing MAP sensor may be your only problem. However I will tear into your log to see if anything else jumps out at me. In the meantime, make sure you get the MAP sensor installed and then go into the Basic Inputs in the Wizard and make sure you select the right MAP sensor for proper calibration.

I'll get back to you on my review of your log.
 

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Any suggestion on what MAP sensor I should get and how to install it??

I thought the MAF sensor will work. I have cold intake along with FRPP MAF sensor that comes with the coyote kit. there is an option to choose MAF sensor Hz but even when i choose it the engine didnot start. is it because the AEM doesnt support MAF or there is more work to do and not just choosing MAF hz instead of VE?

thanks
Hakeem
 

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Discussion Starter #276
Any suggestion on what MAP sensor I should get and how to install it??

I thought the MAF sensor will work. I have cold intake along with FRPP MAF sensor that comes with the coyote kit. there is an option to choose MAF sensor Hz but even when i choose it the engine didnot start. is it because the AEM doesnt support MAF or there is more work to do and not just choosing MAF hz instead of VE?

thanks
Hakeem
No. The AEM Infinity and most aftermarket ECUs use Speed Density instead of Mass Air Flow to determine the air mass entering the engine. You cannot use the supplied MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor. You must install a MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. It needs to be installed somewhere on the intake manifold after the throttle body not before it like the MAF sensor. You can plumb into a vacuum line on the manifold. I like to plumb my sensor just behind but as close to the throttle plate as I can get. The sensors come in different pressure ranges. If you are running boost then you need one to accomodate the higher pressures. If you are running naturally aspirated then a lower pressure sensor will work. I like to run the lowest pressure sensor I can while making sure I have enough range for my engine. The lower pressure range gives greater granularity and tighter measurements. Also, for a MAP sensor, which is about the most important sensor on your engine, you don't want to skimp. All your fueling is predicated on this sensor. The brass sensors are less accurate. I would run a stainless steel sensor as they have higher accuracy.

Let me know if your engine is boosted or not. If it is, tell me how many pounds of boost you are running. Based on your answer I'll give you my recommendation on sensor.
 

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Discussion Starter #277
Hakeem,

I just reviewed your log file. While you have sync state = 1 you are getting a 0% Spark Probability and a 0% Injector Probability. Which means your coils aren't firing and your fuel injectors aren't opening. Let's first start with getting your MAP sensor wired up. It needs to be wired up on Analog8 which the reference signal wire needs to be pinned to C1-36. If you purchased the Controls Pack plug and play harness it should already be wired on the Auxillary connector provided on AUX-5 pin.

Also, there are a number of channels that aren't getting logged. I am sending you a layout file that you can use. I have customized the layout file to include data channels that are important. I am also assuming that the log you sent me is not a USB log but rather a log directly captured on your computer/laptop. That is preferred as the USB logging only allows for a maximum of 100 channels. The channels that get logged to the PC are those that exist on the layout file. For any future logs you send me use my layout file. It will help me troubleshoot your logs more easily.

Overall your setting looks to be mostly correct. Nothing that is way out of whack.

Once you get the MAP sensor in and wired and select the proper sensor in the wizard, run another log and send it to me. If it still doesn't start then I have the next step ready for you to take when we get to that point.

Trevor
 

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hmmm interesting! its good i didnt damage the engine trying to make it run without a MAP sensor!

I am running NA engine. no turbo no supercharge.

And while we are on the topic just a dump question, the connectors for coil on the AEM coyote harness should be connected per drive right? I mean Drive 1 connector 1 and drive 1 connector 2 for the same coil. right?

Thanks again
Hakeem
 

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Discussion Starter #279 (Edited)
Hakkem,

I would run an AEM 1 BAR stainless sensor part# 30-2130-15. Make sure you set the wizard to run the AEM 1 BAR sensor under "Basic Sensors" and then under "MAP Sensor Input".

Also, do not abandon your MAF sensor in your Cold Air Intake. The Coyote MAF also has an integrated Intake Air Temp sensor. This sensor is a dual sensor. You need to have an IAT sensor and this MAF sensor serves that purpose. If you are using Ford controls pack Infinity plug and play harness then this is already wired in for you automatically which your tune shows that it is. So don't remove the MAF. The MAF side of the sensor is not wired into your ECU. So nothing to disconnect there.

Let me know if you have any questions along the way.

Trevor
 

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Discussion Starter #280
And while we are on the topic just a dump question, the connectors for coil on the AEM coyote harness should be connected per drive right? I mean Drive 1 connector 1 and drive 1 connector 2 for the same coil. right?

Thanks again
Hakeem
If you are referencing the AEM coil drivers then no, your assumption is not correct. Here is the schematic for each coil driver if I understand your question. It is critical you get these wired properly.

 

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