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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I'm was contemplating buying a Weber 8-stack system from Jim Inglese but have heard many horror stories about getting them to run properly. I'm going with a 351W/427 and looking for your thoughts / advise on this setup and also on the the EFI versions? I would really like to hear from some of you guys that have or had one of these systems?

Thanks,

Sean
 

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There are two types of Weber stack systems. There are the Weber 48IDA carbs and the 44IDF carbs. The IDAs are race-bred carbs designed for versatility and performance. The IDFs are designed to be less versatile but more "streetable". Both will perform very well when tuned properly and will perform dismally when not tuned properly. The IDFs are considerably less expensive than the IDAs, but the IDAs are more authentic. They were found on many 289 FIA cars.

If you get a system from Jim Inglese, he will guarantee that he will continue to work with you until they are tuned properly. Unless you take the car to him in CT, this consists of an interative process of you telling him what the car is doing, him sending you a new set of jets to try and then several potential cycles of rinse and repeat. There is certainly some peace of mind knowing that a guy like Inglese will work with you until it is done right, but he also charges a whole lot more for his systems, and the iterative process can take a lot of time.

The other prospect is to try to tune them yourself. That's what I'm doing, but while I am old-school in a lot of ways, I am doing it with some modern technology. I bought a used set of sidepipes for cheap and peppered them with O2 sensor bungs. These are my "tuning" pipes. I can place a wideband O2 sensor (I use two LC-1 sensors plugged into my laptop) in each runner or past the collector to tune each cylinder for idle mixture or each bank throughout the rest of the range. There are two keys to tuning Webers (IDA or IDF) - you need to know which tuning parameter affects which part of the operating range, and you need to know what the motor is actually doing (rich or lean) throughout its range. Some research and reading satisifies the first point, and the tuning pipes and O2 sensors make the second part lemon-squeezy.

A lot of people will try to talk you out of Webers. I won't, but I won't try to talk you into them either. A lot of people get discouraged because it can be a lot of work to get them tuned right, and with as many as 11 different tuning parameters (depensing on how you cound them) you really need to know what you're doing to even get them tuned right. Having said that, anyone can learn enough to know whatthey're doing, and with the ability to monitor mixture real-time with O2 sensors, the task becomes a lot easier. Once tuned properly, they will outperform any 4-barrel setup and will rival fuel-injected motors for throttle response and torque. Oh, and the sound of 8 barrels with 2-inch runners screaming at WOT will make your knees weak. For a sense of what they sound like, see this clip, and turn up the volume:


For first-hand experience with a SBF 427 and an Inglese Weber IDA system, you might want to PM QSL (Mike Casey). That is exactly what he has. I have a 331 with an IDA system I got from Wayne Presley for considerably less than what Jim charges, though Wayne doesn't offer the after-service that Jim does. I would be glad to tall you more as well. PM me if you want more info.

Tim
 

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Hard to add much more then what Tim said...

We have the 427w with webers from Jim Inglese, not comp cams. Yes, it was about a 1k premium to buy them from him.

Webers take a lot more patients for sure. Even if it says "bolt on" its not. There is a learning curve and you need to test a lot of things. Best to do when you can drive the car (not go kart). One thing is Jim is very patient and will send you parts as needed to get it dialed in. He really wants you to have a perfect tune. But at the same time, 20% of my success has been doing my own research and changing things on my own.

Webers or EFI? well they cost almost the same depending on how far you go with efi. I originally went with the webers because i wanted the carb look and less wires. However on the coupe we are going with EFI stacks, basically just so we can have a new experience during our build. Having both in my garage, i think the webers look cooler, but the efi setup has more bling.

Lastly, the webers were the best bang for the buck we spent on the car. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE that has seen the car, thats the first thing they comment on. It brings a smile to my face everytime i lift the hood. If you can deal with some growning pains I think they are really worth it. When they do run right or you make progress, its a great feeling. When you hammer the gas the car has a sweet Purrrrrrrrring sound that cant be described. Kind of like all the cylinders are in perfect harmony.
 

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Oh yea, forgot. These really are race carbs so i have finally gotten to realization that at idle its going to be pretty stinky. Then again these puppies were not designed to be in a car thats just sitting there!
 

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I have the 48 IDF which like stated above are supposed to be more streetable. I have not had my first start though so I have nothing really to add to this, other then they look bad A$$ and there was no way i was not going with webers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Webers

Thanks for all the input guys it's very helpful and I'm still intending to go with an 8-stack just have to decide if it's going to be carb or EFI. Jim between you and Mike a lot has been answered. Jim could the bungs be installed in the headers instead of the side pipes? Again thanks for help.

Sean
 

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how would the IDF type system respond to changing altitudes-the areas we drive in southwestern Washington has lots of elevation changes from mountains (St Helens) to farming valleys. What are we talking in complete system prices approx. including a O2 sensor system in a present carbed 347 stroker? thanks for the great info you guys are posting-a good subject for sure.

Bob
 

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Same reply as Steve above except I've got 44 IDFs. I'm trying hard for 1st start bu the end of the month.

 

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Thanks for all the input guys it's very helpful and I'm still intending to go with an 8-stack just have to decide if it's going to be carb or EFI. Jim between you and Mike a lot has been answered. Jim could the bungs be installed in the headers instead of the side pipes? Again thanks for help.

Sean
I assume you mean me (Tim, not Jim). I have the ceramic coated 4-into-4 headers and I didn't want to drill them for bungs, so I put them in the pipes. I think I paid $200 for the pipes shipped, and when I'm done tuning, I'll probably sell them for that:




Tim
 

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One other thing I meant to add. Mike alluded to this and it is worth expanding on. The IDAs are race carbs. They are not really designed for idle or off-idle performance. They are designed to operate very well under race conditions.

Out of the box, the IDAs have two progression holes. Without getting too technical, these holes provide the fueling during the progression from the idle circuit to the main circuit. Some IDA providers (Like Jim Inglese, Inglese (Comp) and Very Cool Parts' supplier) drill a third progression hole. If this is done properly, it makes a huge difference in the "streetability" of the carbs. The off-idle and progression performance is greatly improved and the notorious flat spot between about 2500 and 3000 RPM can easily be tuned out, whereas it is a simple fact of life for the two-hole IDAs.

I am actually working on an information page for Weber IDAs to be posted on my web site (link in my sig). There is a lot of information out there in the world, but in most cases, it covers all Weber carbs and information specific to the IDAs is sparse and hard to separate out from the rest of the stuff. I have been pulling info from a lot of sources and compiling it. I should have the beginnings of a first draft posted by this weekend.

Tim
 

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how would the IDF type system respond to changing altitudes-the areas we drive in southwestern Washington has lots of elevation changes from mountains (St Helens) to farming valleys. What are we talking in complete system prices approx. including a O2 sensor system in a present carbed 347 stroker? thanks for the great info you guys are posting-a good subject for sure.

Bob
I have 48 IDF's, and I live at 5000 feet. In 2009, I went back to the LCS , which is at about 1000 feet, and I did not change any jets.

The same setup has also driven to the top of Trail Ridge Road which is a little over 12,000 feet. It did not like the 12,000 foot altitude , but it did OK.

So, if you look at the extremes, I have driven from 1000 feet to 12,000 feet. How high are your hills in Washington State ??


PS: I also us a LM-2, and I installed the bung into the collector. When the sensors are not in the pipes, the is a plug. Not noticeable when the sensor is out, but the "clocking" of the sensor bung postion is sensitive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Webers

Thanks again I'm learning more by the second. Sorry about the Jim thing Tim! The reason I mentioned the headers was because I already have the GasN side pipes and I was just about to order my headers from "Stainless Headers" and thought i'd have bungs installed on them but your way sounds like a better way to go, so when you're are done with them please let me know Tim as i'd would be interested in buying them from you. Oh I forgot to mention my dad has pm'd and bothered Mike Casey several times already and Mikes been very helpful.

Sean
 

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I'v been working with my 8 Stack EFI for years. Changing, improving, evolving, etc. After this experience, I would never go back to a carb. And the thought of 4 carbs just makes me shiver.

EFI is the way to go. The initial outlay is close enough to the same to call it that. But the performance in a street car is unbeatable. It runs just as well at 30* as it does at 100*. Altitude doesn't matter. On a hot day at low altitude I can fill the tank with E85, flip a dash switch, and drive on.

Tuning is much simpler than a carb. With my new ECU, it is almost self tuning. The computer will tune itself to be really close, and then I can go in and make changes for drivability. You can change the "jets" and the timing from the drivers seat without even shutting the engine off.

The learning curve is a little steep, but not unmanagable. There are a few tricks that you need to learn, and some special tools you'll have to buy. But we're not talking thousands of dollars, only hundreds.

A good ECU also has data logging. If you're having a drivability issue, you log through the ECU until the problem presents itself. Then you'll see exactly what's happening in there.

My engine is fairly radical - lots of compression and a huge cam. Driving around town or down the highway it's smooth and reliable. Up over high mountain passes and down in to the hot river valleys without hesitation. It's just as easy to drive as a stock Mustang is. Idles at 850rpm's.

But, stomp on the gas and it screams like a banshee and takes off like a rocket. I'v never been in a car that pulls this hard.

600+hp, 20mpg, and an easily streetable combination. Not generally possible with a carb.
 

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Derald Rice-guess our mountains aren't THAT tall-St Helens visitor center around 4,200 ft -so sea level driving to that-maybe some later trips to higher elevations out of state. sounds like IDF's would work for me

Bob
 

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I have Waynes set up but with Fast XFI sequential injection using their dual sync dist in a 351w/427.

Turn the key and runs smooth with the IAC.
Balancing the air flow through each barrel is key to getting these systems running properly.
 

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Sean, its a easy decision. Open the hood and see a 4bbl or a 5.0 EFI intake or this... :001_tongue:
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Webers

There is no question it will be an 8-stack and Mike your's has that cool exotic look to it that's impossible to beat. I could always go to an EFI system if I failed to master Jim Inglese system though my dad has a lot of knowledge for me to draw on as well. He has a fair amount of experience with Weber and SUs but only the once you found on early British and Italian sports cars from the sixties I think. Thanks again I'll give it a little more thought and a lot more research. I think the big thing is I like the reliability of EFI but the sound and looks of Mike Casey's Weber set is very cool.

Sean
 

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Hillborn 8 stack Bigger throttle bodies than Very cool Parts setup. There manifold fits all manufactures heads. great support They flew a gentleman out to my house when i had a problem getting the Idle set.They use Fast XFI computer witch I found easy to work with.
 
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