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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Today 11:13 AM
trevor That rocker damage may have caused the #8 problem with the possible cam wipe out due to the debris running through the bearings.

Are you sure 1.7 ratio rockers are ok with your cam. You may have binding and this was the result.
Today 10:35 AM
KRUSTY990 That's ugly. #4 & #8 both share the same cam section between the rear cam bearings. My $$ is still on a broken cam.

krusty
Today 03:59 AM
Danish
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRUSTY990 View Post
Any updates?

Krusty
Yes, good timing! I took half a day off from work today to get back in the garage and get this sorted out. I was going to do a full 720 degree timing check to see that all valves were doing what they were supposed do. Took the passenger side valve cover off and this stared me right in the face...


Now I don't know what to believe any longer. I guess Trevor was right when he predicted there is likely more than one thing wrong - unless of cause there is way that a bad #4 intake rocker can affect #8 also.
11-09-2019 10:47 AM
KRUSTY990
#8

Any updates?

Krusty
10-25-2019 01:43 PM
railroad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish View Post
I'm working on driver's side bank all the way in the back.
Your are RIGHT. Excuse my mistake.
Do not know what I can blame it on, but woke up this morning and realized it.
10-25-2019 11:53 AM
Danish
Quote:
Originally Posted by railroad View Post
Not that it changes anything, unless you are running your plug wires using that info, but I do not think that is #8.

I'm working on driver's side bank all the way in the back.
10-25-2019 11:50 AM
KRUSTY990
#8

I am with BB. All looks well, BUT I would still manually rotate it through a full 720 deg cycle and check for proper valve timing in relation to crank angle.

Krusty
10-25-2019 04:24 AM
Big Blocker
cylinder missing

After watching the video provided, doesn't look as if it's a "mechanical" issue that is kicking you to the ground, so to speak. Valve train seems to be working fine . . .

Doc
10-25-2019 02:55 AM
railroad Not that it changes anything, unless you are running your plug wires using that info, but I do not think that is #8.
10-25-2019 02:34 AM
Danish It looks like the intake gasket is intact:


Exhaust lifter seems fine also. The intake lifter did not want to come out. Guess there is not enough clearence on the AFR heads without grinding material away.


Is there anything else I can/should check while I am in here?
10-25-2019 02:29 AM
Danish Here is a video of the valves with the valve cover off. Number 8 is to the far right.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoFLJPBnL-megP5O1F8SZdsxZD9XUw
10-25-2019 02:19 AM
Danish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm B View Post
I, for one, will be really interested in what you find when you take the lower intake off. Remember to drain some coolant first. That's one of those don't ask me how I know things!

Norm
Right - life is a great teacher!
10-24-2019 10:27 PM
Norm B I, for one, will be really interested in what you find when you take the lower intake off. Remember to drain some coolant first. That's one of those don't ask me how I know things!

Norm
10-24-2019 03:46 PM
Danish Thank you for the suggestions - Very much appreciated!
I have planned to take the afternoon off from work today, so I can work a bit more on it.
Since I have a different intake I want to put on it anyway, I will remove the lower intake and try to see if we can eliminate the lifters and intake gaskets as possible causes.
If no luck on that I will move on to the suggested ECU/wiring.
10-24-2019 05:13 AM
Big Blocker
Bad EEC

The injectors are fired by a grounding Triac in the EEC. IF that Triac is bad, injector won't fire, plain and simple. Swapping injectors doesn't test the EEC, or for that matter, the salt-n-pepper connectors if they are still in the circuit.

The injector can be tested out of the car by connecting 12V to it and then grounding it, IF it "clicks", it's probable good. That takes us back to the EEC and those Triacs that perform the grounding. Has the EEC been opened up and checked? Burnt traces, burnt components . . .

Has the EEC been swapped out with a known good working unit?

Also, has the injector been removed and the fuel rail checked for any obstructions at the #8 port?

Maybe the rail is plugged up and there is fuel at the injector and the injector is firing but the fuel can't get there dues to some sort of debris in the line. Swapping injector wouldn't matter if the line is plugged.

Just trying to help . . .

Doc
10-23-2019 10:05 PM
Brewha This is like a whodunit mystery. I’m betting on a fuel injection issue. You have spark and you passed a compression check. All that is left is fuel to provide the bang and heat.
You can have the following issues
1. You can have the ECM call for the fuel, power delivered to the injector, and the injector not fire.
2. You can have the ECM call for fuel ,power is delivered to the injector and the injector does not spray enough fuel .
3. You can have the ECM call for fuel, power is NOT delivered to the injector, but the injector is capable of firing if it received power.
4. The ECM does not call for the fuel for that cylinder.

Sounds like you moved injectors around so I would check the power going to #8 injector to see if it’s there power and if it has enough to fully engage the injector.

If the power is good then it may be time for a new or reprogrammed ECM.
Good luck, I can’t wait to see what caused this.
10-22-2019 12:05 AM
johnnybgoode Any chance the high revs could have sucked out the intake gasket? Any coolant in the oil and/or can you do a coolant system pressure check to see if its leaking into the motor?

Weird problem. Best of luck with it. Scott
10-21-2019 03:17 PM
Norm B A couple of observations from your pictures. You have full motion of both valves. This indicates your cam, lifters and pushrods appear to be fine. Since you have the rocker off, pull the pushrods and roll them on a flat surface. Any bend will become readily apparent. Valves sticking open can cause a miss but on our engines it would result in valve damage. You don’t have that because your compression and leak down tests were good.

I would keep chasing fuel and ignition problems and since you’re this far apart change the intake manifold and gaskets.

Good Luck

Norm
10-21-2019 06:01 AM
Big Blocker
Running with VC's off

FWIW, small clip on wires with a rubber tip are available that clip to the rockers and plug the oil hole . . . just so you can idle the engine with the valve covers off.

Doc
10-20-2019 01:25 AM
Keysergogo Also, the rocker laying on its side - it looks like some part of the fulcrum shaft or bearing is protruding underneath the snap ring - at about 2 o’clock in the picture.
10-20-2019 12:22 AM
Gregg Wade Is the tip roller pin coming out of that rocker arm on the the right?
10-19-2019 05:08 PM
Irwin Ayes Danish, just a thought. The underside of the pictured rocker appears to have been binding in several places. Most rockers, I've ever seen, appear to be smoother/ better finished, than yours appears. Just my 2 cents worth, Irwin.
10-19-2019 03:03 PM
railroad If you are going to start it up without the valve cover, I have had good luck with a couple of heavy rags across the top of the valve train, less the ones I want to see.

Depending on the spray, you should have a couple of minutes before it gets messy. I put the edges of the rags inside the valve cover lip.
10-19-2019 03:58 AM
Danish Update: Pulled the upper intake and valve cover off to give the rockers, pushrods etc a better look on #8. I have attached some pictures, and all seems to look good. It looks like the valves timing are about right relative to the piston position. I was able to put the endoscope into the cylinder, and it does not look like the piston has been in contact with the valves – at least judging on looking at the top of the piston.

With both valves closed there is no play in the rocker. I am able to turn the pushrod by hand even if it is pretty tight.

So if it was collapsed lifters would the internal spring in the lifter be able to open the valve when the engine is turned by hand and then “collapse” or keep the valves from opening at all when the engine is running?

What is the best way to diagnose that? I am almost tempted to run the engine without the valve cover and see what the valve do. It will probably be an oily mess but what else to do?

The spec for the valve springs are: 150# seat, 400# @ 0.66" max lift. I replaced the lifters two years ago with original Motorcraft when I put the AFR heads on.
10-18-2019 04:54 PM
Tom Sharpe I can't wait to hear the solution. If the compression, leak down, and valve motion is good, it's mechanically sound, no need to pull the heads. PS, the leak down test will show bubbles in the radiator if you have a bad head gasket. It will also whistle in the intake or exhaust with a bent/burnt valve. Loose rocker indicates bad cam or rocker/stud or pushrod. You can see broken springs, etc.
Swapping the injectors and injector wires are great tests to locate a bad injector or wire or ECU issue. I would have bet on the plug wires.
I think it might be a bad intake gasket. Is the plug wet with gasoline or antifreeze or both? That could cause the misfire. Maybe your scope can see something at the head/intake location.
Closing the throttle at high RPM spikes the vacuum in the intake/cylinders. Race motors occasionally break rods - they are pulled apart as the crank tries to yank the piston away from TDC at high RPM with high vacuum readings, also hard on bottom rod bearings. You may have pulled the intake gasket out of position.
PLEASE keep us posted.
10-18-2019 01:56 PM
sread That sounds like a good probability - but wouldn't there be a significant tapping noise? Pretty sure it is something mechanical - seems like fuel and spark have all been covered
10-18-2019 12:42 AM
trevor What about a collapsed hyd lifter?

Never assume it is only one problem. More than once on my car, there was two problems at the same time.
10-17-2019 04:04 PM
Danish Thanks again for the good input! I will pull the upper intake and valve cover tonight and give it a good inspection
10-17-2019 01:45 PM
rich grsc You need three things for a running engine, fuel, compression and ignition. I was sure you had a dead plug, but you said replacing it made no difference. Did you verify that you had good spark?
Someone said a broken camshaft, well no, not in the sense it broke in half, but a wasted lobe is possible. You posted the answer I believe in an earlier reply " (other than one that came in with a cam lobe that was self destroying and therefore not firing on one cylinder). He also mentioned that the chip/ECU does not control ignition on individual cylinders."
You need to check the rockers on the dead cylinder, either one has backed off, or a lobe on the cam is damaged.
10-17-2019 04:54 AM
Norm B Don’t think it can be a broken cam. The 302 is an interference engine design. If anything messes up valve timing the piston and valves would meet. Your compression is good and the leak down test showed no airflow through intake or exhaust hence, no bent valves.

Watching with interest to see the final resolution to this problem!

Norm
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