Coyote engine first start flooding - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Coyote engine first start flooding

Lack experience to know what I need to do next here.

Short version:
Engine is a supercharged crate coyote from Edelbrock. 2015-17 Coyote.
Several attempts at starting failed, fuel pressure too low (20psi) so wound in the screw on the fuel pressure regulator trying to get it to hold at 60.
Figured out not enough gas in tank to cover fuel pump inlet, so put more gas in tank.
Fuel pressure now way too high...
Engine well flooded by now so pulled plugs, dried it out (>1week), drained the oil, separated out the fuel-soaked oil and replaced with fresh oil.
Jumpered the fuel pump and checked the fuel pressure maintained at 60psi (recommended for this engine, stock coyote 55psi).

Another attempt at starting failed. Immediately pulled plugs and put an endoscope down the spark hole.

Pic attached of the puddle of fuel in the cylinder. This is about maybe 2-3 seconds of start x 3 attempts with a rest between.

While troubleshooting the no-start condition I went through the many checklists that can be found on this site and others, so the following are NOT the problem.

Ground - "Negative battery" wire from coyote harness is connected directly to the battery frame ground at the back of the car via a large 2AWG wire solder join, no way there is a "grounding problem". I know there is spark because engine caught once briefly and I got some smoke a couple of other times. Obviously have fuel, too much maybe.

MAF is in the right way.
All sensors are plugged in.
+12V at coils and fuel injectors with key on.
Ignition is wired correctly.
This is a brand new never-started engine with a new Ford control pack, wired as per instructions and double checked.

Only thing I forgot to do was blow out the fuel lines before the first start. They had been cleaned out on assembly but had been sitting in the shed for many months.

Had a bug nest in my chainsaw exhaust port once, horrible feeling something like this may have happened and my fuel injectors are full of dead bug mush...

Can anyone tell me if this is a normal amount of fuel to find in a flooded cylinder, if crapped up injectors would cause this (ALL 8 cylinders are flooded not just some) and if not what else could cause failure to start and flooding like this?

As it is a crate engine I would have to take it apart to get at the injectors. I'm in New Zealand, hard to get help with this sort of thing locally. I think there are maybe 2 or 3 of these engines in the country according to Edelbrock guys.

Help!!

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 12:53 PM
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Not a solution for what is causing the too rich condition, but if you hold the gas pedal to the floor while starting it should stop the injector pulse.
This is a standard procedure for flooding, should work for your engine, ecu, also.
A knowledgeable tuner might be able to tell you what causes too much fuel at start up.
It seems my Coyote instructions, said to calibrate the drive by wire throttle with the key on, slowly press the throttle to the floor and release. Just guessing!

Can you pull a plug, put the scope in the cyl and just turn the key on,,,, see if the inj are stuck open or leaking badly enough to flood the engine prior to cranking.


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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 07:33 PM
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Just thinking out loud here, but is the Ford control pack flashed for the supercharger kit? I would think they'd have larger injectors than the stock tune calls for which would mean that it'd be pumping in much larger amounts of fuel than stock if the same pulse width is called for.

That is a lot of fuel for just a couple second tries. I like the idea of seeing if the injectors are leaking with the endoscope too.

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-05-2019, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
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PCM is pre-flashed. Crate engine supposed to be turnkey.

Could not confirm leak from injectors, but started pulling them anyway. Wasn't hard, thought I'd have to take the whole supercharger off but was no problem.
Left side seem ok, no gunk apparent. Will get to right side tomorrow. Clean it all out, flush fuel lines and reassemble.

Remembered Edelbock has a tech support line, will give them a call when timezones align, see if they have any useful ideas, other than the usual, "have you checked stupid thing x? have you checked stupid thing y".

Thought of cutting back the fuel pressure some more as regulator comes pre-set to 40 or 45 or something and most people would start the engine then adjust pressure up. Maybe its just flooding because its not firing for some other reason.

Going to bench test all the coils/plugs, injectors.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-07-2019, 06:34 AM Thread Starter
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Got it to start for a bit, but then it died. I think my flooding was normal for an engine that did not fire. Would have thought an EFI engine computer should not just keep filling the cylinders with fuel like that? No idea what is normal.

While testing spark plugs figured out the rubber boot on the coils needs dielectric/silicone grease otherwise it doesn't slide down all the way and the spark plugs terminal doesn't contact the coil spring thing properly. (Was no grease originally).

After reassembly and quite a lot of cranking and a few coughs it started. Would have been air in the fuel rails so I thought that was ok.

Oil pressure came up no problem, ran rough for about 25 seconds, then it died.

Black liquid gunk had come out both exhausts. Probably was the excess fuel (smelled of fuel), maybe some water from a cold start. Hope that was ok. No idea.

Would not start again (after a few seconds of de-flood) and battery getting too flat to keep mucking about. Had been using a 20Ah lithium booster to save the battery from getting hammered too much but no good.
Charged it up again and tried again, few coughs but did not start again.

No helpful codes, just ones about the CMVC which is removed.

I had a camera on the gauges but not the engine. Could see the oil pressure come up ok and the tach wobbling about 500rpm.

Edelbrock tech support had gone home early on friday so missed them.

Have to go to 'Straya for a few days soon, will phone Edelbrock tech guy if I can figure out when is Monday in CA.

Still have no idea what is wrong. Everything points to running way too rich somehow. Can't understand how or why. All sensors plugged in ok (MAF, O2, lots of other little plugs).
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-07-2019, 07:26 AM
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What is the (static) fuel pressure set at? (ignition key set to "on/run" engine is off) how are you measuring the fuel pressure? what gauge type? and where is it mounted?

Saul


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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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Regulator mounted next to engine with a gauge. Pressure set at 60psi to spec. Jumped the pump and set it correctly (normally just runs for a couple of seconds, pressure spikes then leaks down to 20psi.

Whoever asked me if the PCM was flashed got me thinking - I'm chasing that up with Edelbrock shop who sent me the engine, checking they sent me the flashed engine not an un-flashed which has an extra zero on the part number. I'm away from home can't look for the invoice.

That could explain problem. Stock tune through 60lbs injectors would flood the engine on cranking, not much else would do that. Stock injectors 32 or 34lbs.

The more I think on it the more I think they must have cocked up the part number and sent me an unflashed crate engine. @#$%!!!!
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogandoc View Post
Regulator mounted next to engine with a gauge. Pressure set at 60psi to spec. Jumped the pump and set it correctly (normally just runs for a couple of seconds, pressure spikes then leaks down to 20psi.

That could explain problem. Stock tune through 60lbs injectors would flood the engine on cranking, not much else would do that. Stock injectors 32 or 34lbs.
Just as likely as a bad tune, your static fuel pressure set too high is likely causing flooding, based on your response you have it is set way too high.

As an example, I'm running a supercharged Coyote with DeatschWerks Fuel Injectors (114 Lbs/Hour, 1200cc/Min Flow Rate) Ford recommends the static fuel pressure for Coyote engines be set at 47 psi and that is where mine is set to with no flooding issues.

Just in case, if after you check your tune and you still have flooding issues I have some useful documents that will explain and possibly help you diagnose.

Good luck

Saul


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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
Just thinking out loud here, but is the Ford control pack flashed for the supercharger kit? I would think they'd have larger injectors than the stock tune calls for which would mean that it'd be pumping in much larger amounts of fuel than stock if the same pulse width is called for.

That is a lot of fuel for just a couple second tries. I like the idea of seeing if the injectors are leaking with the endoscope too.
Dead on. I was shipped the wrong part number engine - 468700 vs 46870, extra zero means no flash in the PCM. Very frustrating. Got tune file from Edelbrock and found a guy down south to flash the PCM without having the whole car. Should have her started next weekend.

On the plus side, its not my cock up, excepting my failure to double check the vendor sent me what I asked for...


Re. fuel pressure - 60psi is what instructions from Edelbrock want. 70psi in later model instructions.

Even if this was too high and 50psi was correct - a 20% increase wouldn't flood engine like this, maybe just run a little rich and the PCM trim tables would deal with that.

Appreciate all the help guys, wouldn't have got there without it.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 11:09 PM
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Great to hear! Looking forward of a video of it running soon


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