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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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Questions to 2nd Gen Coyote Owners

I have a 2nd Gen Coyote removed from a 2017 GT donor bought at auction.

1. I believe a number of owners using the Coyote in their MK4s have eliminated the oil cooler assembly between the block and the filter. What are your experiences after having done so? Just curious if anyone is seeing elevated oil temps that would indicate the cooler is needed. The 1st Gen Coyote crate motor did not have the oil cooler, trying to decide if I need to keep it as it adds to the underhood plumbing. I believe their is a kit or part that is needed to delete the oil cooler. If someone can identify the correct part, that would be appreciated. As I recall, someone used the wrong part and oil starved his engine, something I need to avoid.
I am using the 6R80 AT, so I need a cooler for it, plus the AC condenser make for plenty in front of the radiator. So I am trying to determine if I really need the oil cooler and still need to check on whether the KRC PS pump will need a cooling circuit too?

2. I have the Ford Performance Controls pack for the 2nd Gen Coyote. I thought I read somewhere here, likely from EdwardB, the the controls pack does not utilize the Charge Motion Control Valves. I am installing the Coyote and 6R80 into a 1970 Mustang Fastback. Now that I have the engine and transmission out of the donor, a quick measurement shows that the CMCVs will be "really close" to the stock firewall. If they actually come in contact with the firewall, I would rather remove them, if not controlled by the controls pack, instead of doing more surgery to the firewall for a function that is not used. I am looking for feedback on whether the CMCVs are controlled, and if not, can they be removed and the plumbing capped off in some way. If there is a kit for removing them that has the necessary parts required, all the better.

Thanks for your input in advance,

Alan


MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, 255/40-17 F 295/35-17 R Kumho XS, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 03:30 AM
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The nipple you need to attach an oil filter after removing the cooler is Part number AL3Z-6890-A. I ordered from Tasca Auto Parts and paid $10.47 plus shipping. Cost me $19.46 to get it to my door. I do remember it taking an excessive amount of time to arrive (13 days seems to be a little much considering Iím in Florida and theyíre in Mass. 

I havenít turned my engine over yet so I canít speak to #2.

HTH


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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 04:53 AM
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For sure on the '33, and probably on the coupe and Type 65, the Coyote factory air solenoids hit the firewall. The CMCV stuff can be removed, but the engine will need a new tune. This article does mention it, though as part of a Boss intake installation. Tech: 2015 Mustang Boss Intake Test | SVTPerformance You can use the stock manifold if remove the CMCV vacuum motors and lock the runners. Here is at least one source for the parts required. http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=896.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 10:18 AM
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Just to add to what has already been posted:

1. AL3Z-6890-A is the right part to remove the factory supplied oil cooler and long adapter and allow the oil filter to be installed directly to the block. Just ordered another one for my Gen 3 Coyote/Gen 3 Coupe build from Tasca Parts. Shipped the next day. I think they were in short supply for a while, but apparently that's not the case now. Has nothing to do with the wrong part/oil starvation issue you're remembering. That was an issue with the wrong oil filter relocation adapter, which is not what you're doing with the AL3Z-6890-A adapter. Google the part number and you can see just what it is. Can't say whether your Mustang build needs the cooler. In a Roadster build, where I've run the Gen 2 for a couple seasons now, zero issues with cooling. The Coyote in general is a cool running engine. The Gen 1 didn't have that part FWIW.

2. There has been some discussion about whether the CMCV setup is active with the Gen 2 Control Pack. My experience is that it is. (1) If the vacuum system isn't plumbed properly the PCM will through DTC's saying it's not working as commanded, (2) Reviewing the log files from a custom tune, I can see where there are different values on the CMCV data stream, meaning something is going on there. Their purpose is to improve starting, low idle, fuel economy. Not so much power. So the engine runs OK without. You can use the existing manifold by locking down the runners as already mentioned and a custom tune.

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Originally Posted by progmgr View Post
For sure on the '33, and probably on the coupe and Type 65, the Coyote factory air solenoids hit the firewall...
Not on the Gen 3 Coupe. The CMCV solenoids clear the firewall by a wide margin. Can't say about previous versions.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
Just to add to what has already been posted:

1. AL3Z-6890-A is the right part to remove the factory supplied oil cooler and long adapter and allow the oil filter to be installed directly to the block. Just ordered another one for my Gen 3 Coyote/Gen 3 Coupe build from Tasca Parts. Shipped the next day. I think they were in short supply for a while, but apparently that's not the case now. Has nothing to do with the wrong part/oil starvation issue you're remembering. That was an issue with the wrong oil filter relocation adapter, which is not what you're doing with the AL3Z-6890-A adapter. Google the part number and you can see just what it is. Can't say whether your Mustang build needs the cooler. In a Roadster build, where I've run the Gen 2 for a couple seasons now, zero issues with cooling. The Coyote in general is a cool running engine. The Gen 1 didn't have that part FWIW.

2. There has been some discussion about whether the CMCV setup is active with the Gen 2 Control Pack. My experience is that it is. (1) If the vacuum system isn't plumbed properly the PCM will through DTC's saying it's not working as commanded, (2) Reviewing the log files from a custom tune, I can see where there are different values on the CMCV data stream, meaning something is going on there. Their purpose is to improve starting, low idle, fuel economy. Not so much power. So the engine runs OK without. You can use the existing manifold by locking down the runners as already mentioned and a custom tune.



Not on the Gen 3 Coupe. The CMCV solenoids clear the firewall by a wide margin. Can't say about previous versions.
edwardb: Thanks, I will check with Ford Performance to see if my controls pack is controlling the CMCV system. If they will clear my firewall, I will leave them alone.
I contacted KRC about the need for a PS cooler and they recommended their own cooler if the car would be auto crossed. I do plan to Auto X the car at least a few times as the Good Guys have a show in Scottsdale twice a year. With a PS cooler, AT cooler, condenser in addition to the radiator, anything that can be done to simplify the plumbing will help.

Thanks again,

Alan

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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 08:17 PM
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Alan -
When I talked with Ford tech, they said the system is active/enabled but it's effectively disabled by always running 'open' all the time. As stated, if you leave them unplugged or remove them without a tune, they will throw a code. You can disable the system through a tune and remove the hardware (either locking them open with something like the MMR CMCV lockout parts mentioned earlier, running a different intake, etc).

Aftermarket tunes like the one EdwardB runs seem to make use of it again based on looking through the logs that he sent me. If I remember correctly, some of the runs opened at 3000 rpm, some at 3500ish. A few options are available depending on your preference and if you run into any interference.

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 02:21 AM Thread Starter
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Everyone, thank you for your replies. First things first, I need to put the engine and transmission in the chassis and see if there is interference and how much. I am using the 6R80 AT which is huge compared to anything that preceded it. So I know I will need to cut the trans tunnel and some of the firewall already. If the CMCV interference is minor, I will likely make room for it and see if I can get a tune like that used by edwardb. Improved idle and low end torque could be worth the effort. Once complete, I intend on driving this car long distances to shows across the country and I want it to be as responsive and economical as it can be given that it is a V8 after all.

My thanks to all,

Alan

MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, 255/40-17 F 295/35-17 R Kumho XS, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 02:28 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
Alan -
When I talked with Ford tech, they said the system is active/enabled but it's effectively disabled by always running 'open' all the time. As stated, if you leave them unplugged or remove them without a tune, they will throw a code. You can disable the system through a tune and remove the hardware (either locking them open with something like the MMR CMCV lockout parts mentioned earlier, running a different intake, etc).

Aftermarket tunes like the one EdwardB runs seem to make use of it again based on looking through the logs that he sent me. If I remember correctly, some of the runs opened at 3000 rpm, some at 3500ish. A few options are available depending on your preference and if you run into any interference.
Regarding running another intake, I love the look of the Boss 302 intake, but I would be paying to give up performance from what I have read. The GT 350 intake would provide some minor gains, but at high cost. To start off, I am going to leave the engine stock for the most part. I figure with the CATs removed and exhaust more free flowing, the engine should be putting out 450 to 475 at the crank and likely well over 400 at the rear tires. The 1970 Mustang will probably tip the scales at about 3200 lbs, several hundred lbs lighter than the GT that gave up its engine. The rear axle ratio will be a 3.50, more aggressive than the 3.18 in it originally. Add it all up and I expect the car to be a lot of fun.

Alan

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan_C View Post
Regarding running another intake, I love the look of the Boss 302 intake, but I would be paying to give up performance from what I have read. The GT 350 intake would provide some minor gains, but at high cost. To start off, I am going to leave the engine stock for the most part.
If you leave it untuned from the control pack, you should see gains up top with the Boss intake but no real loss down low due to the CMCV running open by default on the aftermarket control pack. If you do a tune, you'll gain extra down low with the stock manifold.

Another option to consider is the 2018+ intake manifold. It's reported to get nearly all of the gains of the GT350 intake but only cost around $300 from what I remember off the top of my head. That's the route I plan to take since I'll be running GT350 heads that can take advantage of the extra flow but not kill my budget further. A tune with that should give you the low end of the stock manifold with everything enabled and the high end of the Boss intake or greater.

Options to consider. Hope that all made sense

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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
If you leave it untuned from the control pack, you should see gains up top with the Boss intake but no real loss down low due to the CMCV running open by default on the aftermarket control pack. If you do a tune, you'll gain extra down low with the stock manifold.
Boss intake doesn't have or support CMCV. It was designed primarily for the Gen 1 Coyote's before those were implemented in the Gen 2 and now Gen 3. Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding your comment.

I've been interested in seeing the improved numbers from the Gen 3 intake. Cool since I have one attached to the top of the Gen 3 Coyote now sitting in my Coupe build.

One slight issue that's I've detected, since we're on the subject, is the throttle body is also different and pointed up about 8 degrees more than the Gen 2. I think it's going to be OK. Working through it right now. But not every aftermarket cold air intake is going to work. Including the often used Spectre setup. Hits the top of the Gen 3 front cowl.


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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 10:32 PM
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Boss intake doesn't have or support CMCV. It was designed primarily for the Gen 1 Coyote's before those were implemented in the Gen 2 and now Gen 3. Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding your comment.
I guess I could have worded that better. I was referring to the scenario of Boss intake (no CMCV) vs. stock Gen 2 intake untuned which leaves the CMCV open. As a result, lower RPM performance shouldn't be that much different between the two in that specific case.

I'm interested to see what the Gen 3 engine does uncorked with the cold air intake and free flowing headers and exhaust. Seems like they've already hit 500whp using E85 in that case

Can you maybe use a 15 degree elbow pointing down on the throttle body before attaching the standard 90 degree elbow to the driver side?

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
I guess I could have worded that better. I was referring to the scenario of Boss intake (no CMCV) vs. stock Gen 2 intake untuned which leaves the CMCV open. As a result, lower RPM performance shouldn't be that much different between the two in that specific case.

I'm interested to see what the Gen 3 engine does uncorked with the cold air intake and free flowing headers and exhaust. Seems like they've already hit 500whp using E85 in that case

Can you maybe use a 15 degree elbow pointing down on the throttle body before attaching the standard 90 degree elbow to the driver side?
Yea I figured I wasn't interpreting correctly and that you knew the difference. But for others just in case...

I'm looking at multiple options for the Gen 3 Coyote intake in the Coupe. Angling it down with an elbow is one of the options. But that also puts it closer to the frame cross piece not far in front of the engine. I'm complicating the situation somewhat myself by also trying to install the Moroso/Mustang radiator expansion tank. I'll figure it out. I think...

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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-09-2018, 03:21 PM
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My gen 1 coyote has an oil temperature gauge. I am not running an oil cooler and the crate engine was purchased during '13 production, so likely no oil squirters on the pistons. In spirited street driving, the highest oil temp I have seen is somewhere between 90C and 100C. Normal highway driving, it hangs around 70C.

I have read on the mustang forums that oil temperature can be a problem on the track, even on the gen 2 with the cooler in place. High rpms create a lot of heat in the oil and after a 20min track session, it can get excessive.

I haven't gotten my car on track since installing the oil temperature gauge, but I expect the temps to climb. I have seen the oil temperature steadily rise while making a pull through 2nd. I expect autocross and street driving to be fine without a cooler. If you plan to do track sessions, you may want a gauge and/or oil cooler. Hopefully I can provide more insight on oil temps after I get it on track, but I expect it'll be an issue.

Also, if you do install an oil cooler, I would install a -12 system everywhere. It adds a lot of cost compared to a basic -10 or -8, but the coyote moves a lot of oil and it's a risk I don't want to take.

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