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post #61 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-06-2017, 04:10 PM
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looks good!
Exiting times

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Building when I can, sigh....


Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
First start Sept. 18 2013
First go kart Sept 19 2013


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post #62 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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All I want for Christmas...

... is my two front... wheels driven.

Not saying this is totally a go, but rest assured that I'm looking into seeing what it'll take!





I've worked suspension design before and I'm confident I can get new A-arms, new spindle integration, and a revised steering setup, but there are things I still need to figure out with confidence before I pull the trigger and start cutting anything. That way I can revert to a usual rear wheel drive if it doesn't work.

Things to figure out: tunnel cutting, seating due to transfer case and front drive shaft encroachment, front differential integration into the frame, new steering rack placement.

Soooo.... Matt's concept center is now open with a new project.


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post #63 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 07:56 PM
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Wow, an AWD Daytona at a car show would be like seeing an albino unicorn!!
I would think this-> "seating due to transfer case and front drive shaft encroachment,".
is a deal breaker without even starting.
Unless you flip it to the psg side and make is a 1.5 seater....

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post #64 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
I've got my donor 2015 Mustang GT performance pack IRS disassembled and since I want to be like @edwardb and his attention to detail, I'm following the roadster idea to POR-15 and clear coat the cast iron differential:
Looks great! I will be doing the same as soon as I get my kit. What did you use for the clear coat?
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post #65 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, an AWD Daytona at a car show would be like seeing an albino unicorn!!
I would think this-> "seating due to transfer case and front drive shaft encroachment,".
is a deal breaker without even starting.
Unless you flip it to the psg side and make is a 1.5 seater....
An albino unicorn... I like it! As I've told people I know around me, when I'm told it's not possible to design something, I like to prove that wrong. I don't know if I can stick with a driver side drop which is most common or if I'll need to either use a different transfer case, flip this one, etc along with having to find a front differential that would fit and use the same gear ratio as the rear but sit on the passenger side with a driver side extension. A passenger seat is still required in my book but the size and location might be the compromise needed.

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Looks great! I will be doing the same as soon as I get my kit. What did you use for the clear coat?
Thanks! I referenced edwardb's thread and bought Duplicolor Engine Enamel Clear but haven't sprayed it yet
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...ontent=general
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post #66 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 12:41 AM
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Now that is something totally unique!!
Hope you get it to work.

John

Building when I can, sigh....


Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
First start Sept. 18 2013
First go kart Sept 19 2013


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post #67 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 12:52 PM
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Looks great! I will be doing the same as soon as I get my kit. What did you use for the clear coat?
POR-15 makes a clear. I would give that a try frankly. I don't think you can go wrong with any of their products.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/poi-45104


I hope this helps.

Regards,

Steve
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post #68 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 01:54 PM
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Very cool..... And I kept my mouth shut.

I'm. Happy with myself

Michael

Kit Purchased - 10/13/14
Build School - 10/17/14
Ship Date - 11/10/14
Delivered - 12/7/14 Coupe #669
First Start - 4/9/15
Go Kart - 5/2/15
Licensed - 7/17/15
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post #69 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 02:51 PM
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POR-15 makes a clear. I would give that a try frankly. I don't think you can go wrong with any of their products.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/poi-45104


I hope this helps.

Regards,

Steve
Thanks, I'll give it a shot!!
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post #70 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dol View Post
Now that is something totally unique!!
Hope you get it to work.

John
Thanks! I hope I'll be able to resolve the challenges associated with it and have some fun along the way!

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POR-15 makes a clear. I would give that a try frankly. I don't think you can go wrong with any of their products.
Just keep in mind that POR is UV sensitive. I chose black POR because the cast iron was rusted and had oil and solvent splotches on it. The reason I chose the engine enamel to go over the POR and over the bare aluminum is for the UV yellowing reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleDad View Post
Very cool..... And I kept my mouth shut.

I'm. Happy with myself
Quiet so long I was wondering if you were still keeping up with the forums!

For those that don't know, I met SeattleDad while I was looking at buying a coupe and he showed me his build right after he got it back from paint. I didn't tell him what I was thinking of doing until we met in person and only said I was thinking of making some suspension changes when we chatted via PM haha. When he heard all I had in mind, he understood why I didn't go broadcasting it on the forums!


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post #71 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-10-2018, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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A little post-Christmas and New Years update:
Since I've been busy with holiday visits and travel, I haven't been able to make as much progress as I would have hoped for, but I was able to squeeze in some work here and there.

First, my paint 'corner' was set up using my engine hoist and some plastic so I could coat the spindles and differential with the Duplicolor Clear Engine Enamel to keep the aluminum from oxidizing again after I cut the lugs per the IRS install instructions and wire brushed the bare metal.


Next, I moved my spare engine block into the car with the motor mounts and transmission mockup into the engine bay and tunnel to get a better idea of the placement of the shifter (limited due to the transfer case adapter) and the transfer case itself.


You can see below that the transfer case will mount in one of the most inconvenient locations in the cabin - right near my hips and where the base of the seat will go. The idea isn't killed yet (I'm making sure it's resilient) but the picture shows the challenges.


Finally, I was able to get the differential mounted myself last night. It took about 2 hours to get everything in place and bolted up, but not too shabby for going back and forth behind, under, and in the car to move things as well as it being the first time I've done this. The jack sometimes did more harm than good, so I'd recommend following the idea of using 4 lift points to get the diff pinion up and forward and then bringing the whole differential above the mount points before working it down into the final position.

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post #72 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 05:19 PM
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Pictures not showing up?? Anyone else having trouble see the pictures in the last post?

Thanks

Jim

FFR Coupe # 487
Eaton Super Charged 306 SBF, T5 G-Force, IRS.
JimS Custom made headers, Mufflers, SC Intake, Power Windows, Dash board, ETC... :-)
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post #73 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 05:23 PM
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I can see the pics.
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post #74 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 08:17 PM
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Pics are good..

There is a guy in Adelaide, Australia who is building a Cobra roadster using an Audi A4 AWD driveline.. you may want to take a look there or even make contact as he's a bit more progressed that your build.. Australian club cobra forum.

Look forward to your further updates..

Cheers

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post #75 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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There is a guy in Adelaide, Australia who is building a Cobra roadster using an Audi A4 AWD driveline.. you may want to take a look there or even make contact as he's a bit more progressed that your build.. Australian club cobra forum.
Interesting! I hadn't seen that previously.
It looks like we have two different mentalities on our builds - he's keeping the Audi powertrain/drivetrain nearly in tact and building a frame around it that will hold a widened and lengthened Cobra body. My path is to keep the frame and body as close as possible (with necessary modifications) and build new suspension components to work with the AWD so I have wider double A-arms and coilovers on all four corners.
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post #76 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Saturday afternoon update:
I duplicated the cardboard cross section of the transfer case and cut down nearly everything but the input shaft center hole and the output side boundary to see what position it would have to be in to line up with the transmission output shaft and differential input flange as well as not hit the seat and go below the frame. The hole the rod is going through is right at 3.5" below the input shaft centerline which means I'll have to raise the engine, transmission, and differential all up by that amount to get everything to work. I checked the intake manifold height and that means I'll need to modify the hood center hump to raise it about .75" (my estimate). Since I thought about making longer A-arms for the rear anyway so I wouldn't have to run such large spacers, a change in the axle lengths due to raising the differential won't be such a large impact. Well, large impact is relative...


I'm also taking a look at how the seating position will have to change from normal. It looks like I'll need to move the base of the seat forward, raised by 2", and tilt it back more. I can compensate with thicker padding towards my knees so I'm not trying to stretch out and rest my feet on the pedals. A removable steering wheel will be a 'must have'


Still more to mock up, but I'm almost back to thinking this is doable

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post #77 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-14-2018, 08:57 AM
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Not that I am even remotely close to your skills or experience... but that seating position, including loosing 2" of head room does not look like a great outcome. I've literally fought for every fraction of cabin space in my Gen II so it was enjoyable to drive. I'd be cutting the chassis up and rebuilding (as I did in a lot of cases anyway) to preserve the drivers seating position if at all possible, with what you are attempting to do.. .

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Assembly commenced -27 October
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Engine running - October 2015
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TR6060, LS3 motor, IRS, Willwood brake upgrade, three channel ABS, 17'' replica rims, sat nav / stereo, Motec PDM and keypad, AC, adjustable steering column,
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post #78 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 03:35 AM Thread Starter
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Not that I am even remotely close to your skills or experience... but that seating position, including loosing 2" of head room does not look like a great outcome. I've literally fought for every fraction of cabin space in my Gen II so it was enjoyable to drive. I'd be cutting the chassis up and rebuilding (as I did in a lot of cases anyway) to preserve the drivers seating position if at all possible, with what you are attempting to do.. .
I know the Gen 3 coupe has a lower seating position than the Gen 2 which is why I feel a little more comfortable raising the seat back up. I agree it's tight for my 6'2" height with any shift, but when I sat in the demo car in the showroom, even I felt really low in the seating position and looking over the hood. Hopefully I'll strike a good balance. Maybe subtle double bubble roof?

----
Does anyone think I voided my warranty?
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post #79 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 01:15 PM
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Have you considered using a Land Rover LT230? It is bullet proof and places the TC on the passenger side. There is an adapter available that mates it directly to the standard six bolt 4wd tranny output. Here is a picture of my 90 wheelbase Defender with an LS3/6L80 from a 2012 Camaro. Just a thought.

Heres a link to my build thread that is long, but full of pictures:

D90 LS3/6L80 Conversion - Defender Source

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post #80 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Have you considered using a Land Rover LT230? It is bullet proof and places the TC on the passenger side. There is an adapter available that mates it directly to the standard six bolt 4wd tranny output. Here is a picture of my 90 wheelbase Defender with an LS3/6L80 from a 2012 Camaro. Just a thought.

Heres a link to my build thread that is long, but full of pictures:

D90 LS3/6L80 Conversion - Defender Source
From what I see, it looks like the rear output is also dropped away from the engine and transmission centerline. I'm trying to only use a transfer case that has the input and rear output on the same centerline so I don't have to offset the rear differential as well.
It does look like a really cool project though! I went through the link and I'm glad to see that you made it on the road!

---------
A bit more cutting took place and the transfer case I'm looking at was put in place. Turns out I need to cut a little more of the tunnel. Good thing I have a welder for later haha


I'm also looking at a different transfer case to see if I can gain a bit more room back for the seat.
Here's a front to back view:
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post #81 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 05:22 AM
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Am liking the fit of that one a little better..

Re your warranty question.. I reckon its still good..

Coupe 65 #646

Ordered - 28 May, 2014.
Delivery, Sydney - 18 August.
Fabrication and recoating complete - 25 October
Assembly commenced -27 October
Engine installed - 18 December 2014
Engine running - October 2015
First gokart - December 2015

TR6060, LS3 motor, IRS, Willwood brake upgrade, three channel ABS, 17'' replica rims, sat nav / stereo, Motec PDM and keypad, AC, adjustable steering column,
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post #82 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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I wanted to get some measurements for the rear axle angles and things to see what I'd be dealing with from a 'stock' IRS setup and what I may have to do. I put on a wheel and tire from my WRX's summer setup even though I know the wheels I eventually use will be much wider and about 1" larger in diameter.
For the record, I've run gunmetal Advan RS wheels a long time before Factory Five put them on the Coupe R (over 5 years). Just sayin'


Anyway... on to real matters at hand.
It seems the flanges on the frame or the A-arm spacing is off on my car too. I'm not sure if anyone else has it this bad, but for me it's just a small nuisance since I plan to make new A-arms, but I can see it being an issue otherwise. Hopefully this is something Factory Five is working on since I've seen other comments about it recently. I took out the forward bushing to make things fit for the mockup. You can see how far forward the arm is in the clevis:


For the axles, I wanted to see the stock angle and the angle they'd be if I ran with the diff raised up to meet the necessary transfer case height.
Here's a picture with roughly a 4" ride height (very slight axle pitch up):


And here's a picture with the wheel moved down to simulate the same ride height but the differential moved to match the transfer case flange (axle pitch down noticeably with the provided axles):

In reality, the upper A-arm was hitting the frame so I couldn't simulate the full angle

So... since I wanted to be wider in the rear anyway, I compared the Factory Five provided axles (bottom) with the stock 2015 Mustang GT axles (top). It's a 5" difference on each side.

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post #83 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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In transfer case to differential mounting news, I picked up a 30 spline pinion flange made for U-joints from a 03-04 Cobra that I'm going to see if it fits on the Super 8.8 pinion flange and in the 2015+ IRS case. In hindsight, I should have looked for a 2015+ F-150 pinion flange but I still may have to do that.


Here's how I plan to couple the transfer case output flange to the differential. The silver pinion flange will hopefully replace the stock IRS-to-CV-style-driveshaft pinion flange (black) used on the Mustang GT to let me move the transfer case further aft.
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post #84 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Some progress and setbacks.

I was able to remove the 2015+ IRS differential pinion flange with the help of the Factory Five provided pinion flange to driveshaft adapter and a ratchet strap to keep it from spinning on my. I followed the instructions pulled from dhuff's Mustang GT repair manual. First I tried to measure the free spin torque of the flange which is under 20 in*lbs and then I removed the nut and flange itself with a puller. Not too difficult, but the procedure Ford uses is to punch the nut and stake it into a recess in the pinion gear. Great for holding it place from spinning, not so great to undo.


Next, I tried installing the 03-04 Cobra flange on the new Super 8.8 differential and found it's a no-go from stock part to stock part. Can you see the reason?




Ok, neither could I. After measuring with some calipers, I found the spline diameter is just about .030" smaller on the Cobra flange even though both are 30 spline 8.8" pinion flanges. Dang it!

I put out a request to Nitro Gear and they won't do a Cobra flange with a 2015+ Mustang GT spline even though they have the tooling to do both. I've also got a request in at a local company to see if they can modify the splines. I really would prefer not to have to modify the splines myself.

Any ideas of places I can contact to make the correct splines even if I have to turn my own flange on a lathe? Even better, a company that might be willing to modify the existing splines?

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post #85 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 08:04 PM
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You might try the Dutchman out of Portland, OR. Dutchmanaxles.com. When I was big into wheeling (rock crawling) he made some custom axles for me. You might check him out.

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post #86 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 05:02 AM Thread Starter
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@TMScrogins , thanks for the info! You'll see below I made a new discovery, but I was looking for a place that would do custom axles so that solves a future problem.


------

Well, you know what you say about the internet... you can't believe everything you read!

I realize these last few posts are a sidebar or tangent from the usual build, but what I'm finding is interesting nonetheless. Who knew that so many places list different spline counts for the same differentials? Or that the 2015+ Mustang GT and 2015+ F150 ring and pinions are interchangeable if you don't have any towing package that bumps the axle up to a 9.75" ring and pinion? Or that even truck guys on forums don't know what size differential they actually have because they only think of the number of bolts matters (now some realize that was an easy identifier in the past)?

Anyway, I stopped by a local spline and gear manufacturing business that turns out splines and hobs some Boeing parts. They confirmed that the spline pattern should be a standard 24/48 involute profile which got me thinking. What kept bugging me was that with a given diametrical pitch and pressure angle, you can't just increase the diameter without increasing the spline count. Well, that made me recount the splines on the Mustang GT stock pinion and flange. I thought I mis-counted because I read 30 spline everywhere, but there are 31 splines now!
Long story short, I ordered a 2015+ F150, 31 spline flange that seems to fit both the Super 8.8" and 9.75" differentials. Once that arrives, I can confirm.


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post #87 of 128 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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More silly transfer case and differential info below. You've been warned.

Good news! The 2015+ F150 flange for the 8.8 and 9.75" diff has the same spline count, same spline diameter and outer diameter (to match the oil seal), and same depth that's inserted. I was able to put the new flange on but didn't tighten it down all the way to get the correct preload. I'm going to pull it back off and check to see if the pinion nut sits at the same height because the white dust shield didn't fully seat when the nut torque started getting high. Worse case I add a washer under the nut to get everything to fully seat.

Even though the new flange pushes back the mating surface by almost 2", the pinion threads and nut stick out to eat up about an inch of that difference. Note to anyone who needs a longer driveshaft due to transmission choices or driveline angle issues and is ok ditching the Factory Five provided flange adapter, this could buy something like 2.5".



I cut the bottom X bracing in the Coupe's frame to drop the transfer case forward output flange right to the bottom of the frame line to get it as far down as possible without hanging down to get hit. With the new flange on the rear differential, I put the seat back in to get an idea of the new position. While not optimal yet, it is noticeably better than before. You can also see how high all of the driveline will sit relative to my seat. This will get reinforced frame members around it for sure so I don't break my hip if anything ever went wrong.



The final two pictures show the height difference again but also show that the seat belt bracket for the driver's right side lower tab will need moved or the other flange on the transfer case cut off. My guess is both.





Anyone want to sponsor the car so I can fund the transmission purchase in the near future and keep forging on, or get some wide wheels in a square setup, or rear Wilwood brake kit, or other necessary build parts? Pretty please?

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post #88 of 128 (permalink) Old 02-08-2018, 04:40 AM Thread Starter
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Pretty pictures and charts time (because I don't get enough of that at work haha)

On a topic that can have infinite discussion with no resolution (also an aspect of work at times), I've decided to try to pin down what I want to do with the transmission gear ratios and final drive ratios. I chose a front differential to match the 3.73 of the Mustang GT performance pack to minimize upfront costs and I would like a fairly good spread of ratios, a 1st gear I can crawl in traffic with (Seattle to Everett), and a top gear I can cruise if the highways are open or take a run further away should I actually start traveling again.

I cropped all the captures the same so anyone should be able to save the charts to your computer and tab back and forth to see the changes more easily.

Baseline: 2016 Mustang GT, stock wheels and tires, performance pack


Second: Gen 3 Coupe, T-56/TR-6060, 3.73 rear, with 2.97 1st, .63 6th, square 295/35/18

Not too bad at all. I'm also trying to keep in mind that I want my engine to rev to 8000+

Third: Comparison to my WRX with a 07 STI 6-speed, stock tire size for chart

You can see 4th to 5th is a small change, 60mph already spins the engine at 2200rpm, and at 75mph I sit at 2750rpm.

Search for all available differential gears that match both the Super 8.8 and the 7.562" front differential I'm starting with to keep the size down...4.56:1's are available!
Fourth: Gen 3 Coupe, T-56/TR-6060 with 4.56 rear, 2.97 1st, .63 6th, square 295/35/18

Surprisingly, this is nearly identical to the crank to mph gearing of the STI I'm used to. Crazy, huh?

Finally, fifth: A fun thought should I change out 5th and 6th to .74 and .50 with the 4.56 differentials, square 295/35/18

I can crawl in stop and go traffic, shift similarly to my 390+hp WRX, and still cruise at 60mph like a stock Mustang GT at 1800rpm. Seems like that's full of hypothetical win!

Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder
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post #89 of 128 (permalink) Old 02-09-2018, 07:27 PM
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Beyond the choice between acceleration and top speed, isnt the real issue with gearing the balance between available power and traction for V max, or 1/4 mile time or 0-60.. etc.

That said 3.73 does get these cars to boogy very nicely off the line.. Into the 4's for final drive gearing is definitely not required with the power / weight and in your case.. 4wd traction... unless you primary goal is 0-60.

I picked 3.55 with an LSD for a street to track set up with softer springs and adjustable QA1's to compensate as required. Given the option again, as these cars cant really be made into a GT, I would have gone 3.73.

Loving your work, look forward to your updates and a sponsor coming onboard..

Cheers

Chris

Coupe 65 #646

Ordered - 28 May, 2014.
Delivery, Sydney - 18 August.
Fabrication and recoating complete - 25 October
Assembly commenced -27 October
Engine installed - 18 December 2014
Engine running - October 2015
First gokart - December 2015

TR6060, LS3 motor, IRS, Willwood brake upgrade, three channel ABS, 17'' replica rims, sat nav / stereo, Motec PDM and keypad, AC, adjustable steering column,
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Last edited by northshore2014; 02-09-2018 at 07:32 PM.
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post #90 of 128 (permalink) Old 02-14-2018, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
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As I wrote on the other forum... a sponsor would be awesome, I just have to figure out how to find one and then convince them the ideas in my head are worth their money or products. Sooo... until I have a great finished car, I'm guessing I'll be completely self funded haha!

I created what's below based on your comments about power vs. traction vs. speed, etc. It got me thinking (in a good way) about what all the differences would be. All that figured out based on my current logging and road dyno for the WRX and I have a bigger turbo ready to go on once I have this driveable.

------
In other news, I half convinced myself I need the 4.56 gears. I know the Coupe is going to be lighter than my WRX, but I created a graph of it's current wheel torque vs speed and compared it to the natural aspirated build I'm doing. I can see why the WRX/STI/Evo all feel so fast from the get-go since they're usually not traction limited and the gearing is so low. With my current turbo and tune, it's got a pretty noticeable peak starting from a 5mph roll, but once it gets going, boy does it move quick. The 3.73 gearing of the Coupe, since I also hope not to be traction limited, would be great after 40 but seem slower on the butt-dyno until then just due to the gearing.

Here's the chart, based on wheel torques of my WRX vs. the wheel torque of a stock Mustang GT which I should exceed easily with my tuning, the better heads, non-restrictive exhaust, etc.


While waiting on building funds for the transmission, I'll start working on the updated rear suspension design. I'll post as I get that started to be sorted out.

Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder
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