Coyote stalling under heavy braking - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 02:02 AM Thread Starter
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Coyote stalling under heavy braking

Setup: 2014 Coyote MK4, manual brakes (cobra fronts and 2015 IRS with factory Ford brakes in rear), power steering from Factory Five, complete kit fuel tank, in-tank fuel pump and float with 3/4 tank of gas.

The first time it was a fluke - was coming up to a light, slowing down and preparing to turn and the engine sputtered, died and I lost power steering. Restarted the car, pulled off and everything seemed fine. Wasn't paying enough attention to know all that was happening but it seemed the engine stalled. Speed maybe 25 mph.

A month later, happened again - coming down a hill to an intersection and preparing to turn and the engine sputters and power steering goes. Engine comes back before the car fully stalls and power steering comes back. Speed maybe 20 mph.

Two days later (tonight), coming in a bit faster into an intersection to turn left it happened again. Same as the last time, it stays running but I can hear the engine lug as if it's thrown into a high gear at low speeds. However much like the last time, my foot is firmly to the floor on the clutch and even if it was engage it's sitting in 3rd gear which shouldn't stall the engine - I'm ready to raise off the clutch at that point normally. Speed maybe 30-35mph.

I haven't been able to duplicate at will yet (I need more time to try a few things). What gives?


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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 04:24 AM
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Two things occur to me: (1) Gen 1 Coyote, right? I personally haven't used one, but they did have a stalling issue with that crate motor. Ford Performance issued a fix using a speed dial module, part number M-4209ADPT-AC. I vaguely recall a new calibration of the PCM eventually eliminated the need for the speed dial. But not positive about that. Any of that sound familiar? (2) Can't help but wonder if something might be happening with your fuel pump or tank installation. Maybe a fuel delivery issue rather than the Coyote system itself.

You've checked for any trouble codes? That would be another thing to check if you haven't.


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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 02:17 PM
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I have a Gen 1 and bought the speed dial module. I have very little go cart time, but have had no similar issues.
If you have not had your engine tuned, I would consider it. If you discuss this with your tuner, he might be able to advise you the best route.
I am wondering if the power steering use has any relation to the stall issue.
My engine, does lose rpm when the fan comes on and the computer corrects it.
I wonder, if your ps pulls the rpm down too low for the computer to correct, before the engine dies. I think the speed dial helps with this.
With the car stationary, idling, does your ps turning load seem excessive on the engine rpm?
I bought my speed module from Mike Forte. Being a Ford item, I am sure it is available from numerous places.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 03:26 PM
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I agree with Railroad on tuning, I also have a Gen 1 Coyote but I'm running an AEM Infinity ECU, as a novice tuner it's easy to see how stalling issues among other things can be corrected by a tuner, besides without a custom tune you are very likely leaving horsepower on the table.

A professional tune is a worthwhile investment.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 04:50 PM
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My first thought was EdwardB's #2. Seems like it might be fuel delivery because all occurance if I read right are slowing from speed.

Also the car needs a basic tune & the Speed Dial can't hurt. Been a while but if I remember correctly, old farts brain drain, the Speed Dial worked mostly for idle stalling after normal running.

Is the intake sensor positioned on the tube at 9 o'clock (toward front of the car) & do you have the 3.5" sleeve in it?


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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 07:26 PM
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Bear and EdwardB likely are on to something that it may be, other than the Speed Dial. On the Gen1 engines and Gen1 Controls Pack ECU, there was a known stall issue. The Speed Dial that EdwardB pointed to was the after production fix. I had that issue myself so I know the behavior. I donít think that is your problem based on how you described it. The Speed Dial does nothing more than sense wether or not the vehicle is moving (thatís it). It looks to adjusts Idle up temporarily when the vehicle comes to a complete stop on a quick deceleration and the ECU goes into the closed loop idle circuit that is bringing the RPM down fast to prevent overshoot at full stop (or at least I understand it).

Bear mentioned something else that you should look at. Inspect the MAF sensor. Specifically do what Bear suggested and make sure the sensor is not installed backwards. The leading sensor edge should be pointed to the air inlet of the filter. Yep, experienced that too.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-26-2019, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMScrogins View Post
Bear mentioned something else that you should look at. Inspect the MAF sensor. Specifically do what Bear suggested and make sure the sensor is not installed backwards. The leading sensor edge should be pointed to the air inlet of the filter. Yep, experienced that too.
Agree checking the MAF sensor is a good idea. If it's installed backwards, not connected, or inoperative, the engine will start briefly but then immediately shut down. From personal experience plus also helping others.

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 12:52 AM
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Hi Mike,

Possibility 1 - One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the clutch switch. I have a 2012 gen 1 motor in my roadster. I fitted the speed dial per recommendations and I also installed the clutch switch as a safety measure to prevent starting in gear.
Once I started driving I found that the clutch switch does more than prevent starting in gear. on my car it gives a slight increase in RPM when the clutch is depressed. My belief is that the ECU looks at the clutch position so that it can increase fuel supply to the engine when the clutch is depressed at the end of a deceleration/ coast in order to prevent engine underspeed or stall.
My daily driver has exactly the same setup and I have proven that is what the clutch switch is used for in that application. If I am slowing down and pop the car into neutral without using the clutch, the engine RPM drops too low and almost stalls. Combine that with the extra loading of the power steering when making a turn and I have a definite stall condition.

Possibility 2 - check that you have a good electrical suuply to your power distribution box as supplied with the motor. I used to have an isolator in series with the B+ supply so that I could cut power to the ECU when the car was going to be stored for long periods. Whilst the switch could carry the running current of the ECU, fans and fuel pump without issue, I had negated to allow for the current required for the starter motor solenoid. This burned up the contacts on the switch, resulting in intermittent operation of the engine. Fortunately the fault became permanent quite quickly and I've now removed that switch - Quite embarrassing for an electrician. On the other hand I have found the ECU standby current is so low that it doesn't really affect the battery anyway.

Best of luck and be sure to let us know how you get on.

Cheers Nigel in South Oz
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 02:02 AM Thread Starter
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It it in fact a gen1 Coyote but I have the speed sensor already so I don't believe this is related. I've also put 2,000 miles on the car without this issue so it seems even more unrelated to the known stall issues.

Fuel sloshing seems odd to me, even though it would make sense with the braking and all, because I have the standard tank and setup and I'd expect to see a ton of people with the same issue. I'm not braking HARD here, it's more than a gentle stop but nothing exciting.

I'll look at the MAF - I'd suspect that should have presented in other driving but worth a try.

Clutch safety is a good idea too. Other than looking at the wires to make sure they're connected, what am I looking for? I'll be honest, I could never figure that thing out, no matter how I wired it I can start the car with the clutch in or out.

I'll have for look for that OBD port, I'm sure it's hiding in the dashboard somewhere - forget where I mounted it.

I'm surprised at all the comments about the tune - maybe a separate thread worthy of this topic - I don't really need more HP, I'm really more concerned how to know if this problem is related? Do I need to have this custom done or is this something generic I can download and install with an off the shelf adapter? Not wanting to spend a ton on a tune unless it's actually the issue.

Let me try a few things and report back. Thanks!!!

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:15 AM
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Mike, in regard to your questions and comments about fuel pressure, I can offer the following from recent experience:

I have a dash mounted speedhut fuel pressure gauge, it is set at 55 PSI Delta and I checked it's calibration prior to fitting. I installed this because in the Ford manual it is stipulated in multiple locations, the importance of having 55 PSI fuel pressure. (My fuel pressure regulator is also vacuum compensated) I normally seem to have around half a tank of fuel in the car. At this level there is no issues with fuel pressure as a result of fuel sloshing in the tank, the pressure is spot on even with spirited driving. The other day I misjudged fuel requirements and basically ran the car almost out of fuel. The tank gauge was showing empty and when braking, fuel pressure was going down to just below 30 psi. The Coyote didn't seem to care.

Fuel system is as FFR supplied.

Not particularly useful information, but may help just the same. Good luck.

Cheers Nigel in South Oz

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 02:17 PM
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Do not know if this will be relevant, but I do not have the neutral switch connected and I put the clutch switch on a toggle switch. I have not tried the toggle switch to see if it prevents the engine from starting. I will not get into a debate about my choices, just food for thought on the issues.

I will add to the tuning discussion, horsepower is just a nice by product of a tune.
It should improve start time, idle, throttle response, gas mileage, emissions, etc.

good luck,

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:17 PM
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Gen 1 Coyote, functioning clutch switch, NO speed sensor, 47 psi Delta fuel pressure, NO stalling issues.

With a custom tune the tuner is specifically looking at your engine's data and any issues related to how it runs, so it is also used as a diagnostic tool. As previously said horsepower is a nice product of a tune but as a diagnostic tool it can point out issues, a generic tune however will not help with this.

Definitely a good idea to try to find the issue first but a custom tune won't hurt and should help overall.

Saul


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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-03-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TallerMike View Post
Setup: 2014 Coyote MK4, manual brakes (cobra fronts and 2015 IRS with factory Ford brakes in rear), power steering from Factory Five, complete kit fuel tank, in-tank fuel pump and float with 3/4 tank of gas.

The first time it was a fluke - was coming up to a light, slowing down and preparing to turn and the engine sputtered, died and I lost power steering. Restarted the car, pulled off and everything seemed fine. Wasn't paying enough attention to know all that was happening but it seemed the engine stalled. Speed maybe 25 mph.

A month later, happened again - coming down a hill to an intersection and preparing to turn and the engine sputters and power steering goes. Engine comes back before the car fully stalls and power steering comes back. Speed maybe 20 mph.

Two days later (tonight), coming in a bit faster into an intersection to turn left it happened again. Same as the last time, it stays running but I can hear the engine lug as if it's thrown into a high gear at low speeds. However much like the last time, my foot is firmly to the floor on the clutch and even if it was engage it's sitting in 3rd gear which shouldn't stall the engine - I'm ready to raise off the clutch at that point normally. Speed maybe 30-35mph.

I haven't been able to duplicate at will yet (I need more time to try a few things). What gives?
Classic speed dial issue, the computer needs a sense of vehicle speed to operate properly.

Can I be tuned out? yes absolutely.
Are you going to tune it out in one shot. No way.

I had a customer tell me not to install it when I was building his car. "His tuner can fix it"

Well... after the tune and going back to the tuner, the problem still existed.

We put a speed dial in it and if fixed the problem.


My experience has been install a speed dial and forget about the stalling.

this is only a gen 1 coyote issue.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-03-2019, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Classic speed dial issue, the computer needs a sense of vehicle speed to operate properly.

I already have a speed dial installed. Any idea how to check it?



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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-03-2019, 05:19 PM
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JGS Tune

I had the same problem. I bought a chip with a tune from JGS for cobras with coyotes. Never had the problem again. If you can't find it on the internet, shoot me an email and I'll try to hunt up my stuff. [email protected]
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 05:04 PM
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Gen 1 Coyote Stall

I actually retired from Ford 10 months ago. A couple of the guys in my group knew the calibration supervisor for the crate motors at Ford Performance, so I was able to trade a few emails and have a beer with him after work.

I was worried about getting the speed just right going into the PCM, so I researched the differences between OSS and VSS, read the VID block with a Ford Diagnostic Tool that the calibrators use, wanted to know what the PCM assumed since the rear axle ratio wasn't in the VID block, etc. I spent a descent amount of time digging into this.

If I remember correctly, the guy said the speed didn't have to be accurate. When coasting down in gear, if the PCM did not know the vehicle was moving, it would think the car was idling too high (because the vehicle coasting down in gear was causing the engine RPMS to be above target idle), and the idle control would fight this and try to make the idle lower, then when you pushed the clutch in the idle control could not recover fast enough and the engine would stall. While the speed input did not need be accurate, I think it needs to be there. On mine I got a PCM pin from work, and populated the correct pin in the PCM connector.

With that said, mine is a go kart, so who knows it may stall when I actually put some miles on it !!


I had this conversation sometime during the summer of 2018, so this is from memory. He did mention that it would be a good idea to get someone like Livernois Engineering the modify the transfer function for the MAF. He didn't use that terminology, but when mine hits the road next summer, I'll hook up with him again and have Livernois do what ever he told me to do.

I would make sure you did actually add the pin/wire to the PCM connector, and get the speed dial input.

While it might not have to be accurate, the old VSS signals expect 8,000 pulses per mile. In an OSS the PCM uses the tire revs/mile and the rear axle ratio to actually determine the speed knowing that every output shaft rev sends out 12 pulses. This results in the pulse per mile more in the 30,000 - 32,000 range.

VSS sensors have 8 poles. The gear on the output shaft and the speed sensor gear result in roughly a 2.25:1 to 3:1 gear reduction depending on the particular gear set. The OSS has 12 pulses per output shaft rev.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 09:02 PM
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I actually retired from Ford 10 months ago. A couple of the guys in my group knew the calibration supervisor for the crate motors at Ford Performance, so I was able to trade a few emails and have a beer with him after work.

I was worried about getting the speed just right going into the PCM, so I researched the differences between OSS and VSS, read the VID block with a Ford Diagnostic Tool that the calibrators use, wanted to know what the PCM assumed since the rear axle ratio wasn't in the VID block, etc. I spent a descent amount of time digging into this.

If I remember correctly, the guy said the speed didn't have to be accurate. When coasting down in gear, if the PCM did not know the vehicle was moving, it would think the car was idling too high (because the vehicle coasting down in gear was causing the engine RPMS to be above target idle), and the idle control would fight this and try to make the idle lower, then when you pushed the clutch in the idle control could not recover fast enough and the engine would stall. While the speed input did not need be accurate, I think it needs to be there. On mine I got a PCM pin from work, and populated the correct pin in the PCM connector.

With that said, mine is a go kart, so who knows it may stall when I actually put some miles on it !!


I had this conversation sometime during the summer of 2018, so this is from memory. He did mention that it would be a good idea to get someone like Livernois Engineering the modify the transfer function for the MAF. He didn't use that terminology, but when mine hits the road next summer, I'll hook up with him again and have Livernois do what ever he told me to do.

I would make sure you did actually add the pin/wire to the PCM connector, and get the speed dial input.

While it might not have to be accurate, the old VSS signals expect 8,000 pulses per mile. In an OSS the PCM uses the tire revs/mile and the rear axle ratio to actually determine the speed knowing that every output shaft rev sends out 12 pulses. This results in the pulse per mile more in the 30,000 - 32,000 range.

VSS sensors have 8 poles. The gear on the output shaft and the speed sensor gear result in roughly a 2.25:1 to 3:1 gear reduction depending on the particular gear set. The OSS has 12 pulses per output shaft rev.
Wow, lots of stuff here I don't understand

I have had good luck adding the pins to the PCM and making them work, I use a separate input for the speedo and the Speed dial. If a tko5/600 there is a connector on the passengers side that can be used as well as where the Speedometer/cruise control cable would go on the left side in the tail shaft.

I guess one way to check and see if the speed dial is working would be to connect the wires that go to the PCM to the Speedo to see if it is seeing a pulse, If the speedo sees a pulse, no matter at what rate, and the connections are good at the PCM I would assume its working.

What does your air intake set up look like? Generally these Coyotes just run, no drama.

Do you have 57-58 PSI fuel pressure?

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 09:46 PM
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I am running 55+ psi, I just flipped the key on and tried to read the gauge quickly and it looked like it was in the 55-60 neighborhood.

Air intake is just the simple elbow that points the conical air clear to the drive side. Honestly, I'm not sure if that is necessarily going to be a problem at the moment.

If you can wait a few days I can send you how I wired my speed dial in, I'm just heading out to a track day with my son for the weekend, and trying to be fast and efficient here. I could probably find a PCM pin for you too, I had some spares.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 10:34 PM
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Hereís a schematic on how I wired mine in when I was running the Ford PCM.

Electrical Schematic - Speed Sensor & Speed Dial wiring.pdf
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