How many guys are FI vs Carb - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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Interested to know what route most guys took.

I’ve been a fan of FI since my first build and all since have been.

I’ve had a few issues with this particular setup and i believe it’s in need of a custom tune to sort out. I love FI for its cold starts and being more economical as far as fuel burn.

I can’t help but think that for the few miles I drive this car I could swap to a carb and sell off my FI parts and be money to the good.

I do know that a good carb setup isn’t all that temperamental anymore.

Motor is a 347 T5. Has all the usual top end upgrades. Whole top end and cam done by Ed Curtis at FTI. Car runs incredibly well just has a few idle issues and hot start issues. Car has been together for 13k miles.

Just curious


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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 12:40 PM
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Edelbrock Dual Quads. I have not started the engine yet. Hopefully really soon. They are supose to be user friendly. We will see. 347 SBF

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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 01:37 PM
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I have a carb but if I did it now, I would go with carb look EFI.

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 02:41 PM
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 02:58 PM
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Carb - 302 (Edelbrock Performer RPM heads with 2.02 intake valves + Edelbrock Performer RPM intake and a Ford "F" Cam)

I have a couple of carburetors. Both are 600cfm with one being the Edelbrock and the other a Holley double pumper. I converted both to electric choke. The Edelbrock was pure plug and play with my engine. Bolt it on, adjust the idle and the mixture and it simply worked. I bought the Holley DP to see if it would make more power (and yes, it sure seems to). The Holley was a little more finicky to get dialed in simply because it offers a wealth of tuning options. Of course the idle/mixture needs to be set but Holley has a wide range of options to adjust the accelerator pump. I had a hesitation at idle because the primary pump wasn't dumping enough fuel to compensate for the sudden loss of vacuum as the butterflies opened. I was able to tune this out by changing the pump cam (easy) to the "green" version and increasing my shooter size (easy but a little nerve racking to do on the car) by 1 step. The Holley now runs great.

The point is that getting a carb dialed in isn't too hard. It might just drop in and work or, it might need a little "massaging" to get it dialed in but once set, you shouldn't have many issues.

I was intrigued by EFI but couldn't justify the cost and the hassle of finding someone to weld the O2 bungs into my exhaust.

No regrets at all. In fact, I am very happy with both carb's. I tend to use the Holley for playing around on the streets but it burns through a tank of gas faster than the Edelbrock so I switch them out when I am planning to do a lot of highway driving.

I should add that both carb's require two pumps of the gas pedal before I turn it over but both will start instantly in hot and cold weather.
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 02:58 PM
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Not sure how old your EFI is but finding a buyer for a used, and possibly outdated EFI system might be a little tough. Too many pluses for EFI to go back to carb. Just my opinion.

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 04:49 PM
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I have been carb since 2007. Bought my current QF about 2012. I spent a ton of time getting it tuned properly. I learned a LOT and really enjoyed the process. Enjoyed the minor changes needed when I went 351 to 408. But it was a lot of work and I have worked on cars all my life w/ the last 25 yrs as a Lexus line tech. So a carb is not likely to be a bolt it on and go situation. If I were needing a carb now, I'd also go carb look efi. When I was buying, the carb was approx $650 and MassFlo efi was approx $2000 so it was no contest. Now w/ efi approx $1000 and the carb $688, the efi would be no contest.

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR3247 View Post
Interested to know what route most guys took.

Iíve been a fan of FI since my first build and all since have been.

Iíve had a few issues with this particular setup and i believe itís in need of a custom tune to sort out. I love FI for its cold starts and being more economical as far as fuel burn.

I canít help but think that for the few miles I drive this car I could swap to a carb and sell off my FI parts and be money to the good.

I do know that a good carb setup isnít all that temperamental anymore.

Motor is a 347 T5. Has all the usual top end upgrades. Whole top end and cam done by Ed Curtis at FTI. Car runs incredibly well just has a few idle issues and hot start issues. Car has been together for 13k miles.

Just curious
What's the details of your setup? Or did I miss it?

Steve

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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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347 with eddy performer rpm heads and intake. All ported and custom cam ground for the setup. All done by Ed Curtis at fti.

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 10:38 PM
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Old school car. Old school motor. Old school Carburetor. Old school body. Old school brain.

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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 11:25 PM
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So...Me Too...

I had a carb on my first build, a 390, and liked it quite well. It didn't seem to need too much attention for normal use on local runs. I could tell when I went to higher elevations that it was in need of adjustment but as I was just visiting I didn't do any.

When I built my FFR I decided to go with FI and used the donor set-up, '88 Mustang 5.0 HO. I really like the convenience of this set-up, as well as the increased mileage (16 on the carb'd 390 and 25 on the FI 302).

As I get closer to finishing my '67 Cougar, I'm leaning to the "carb look" for the same convenience. I will get it running with the stock Holly carb and switch to FI later on (I did add the O2 ports when I welded up the exhaust system).

Regards.

Driving a car like this is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 04:08 AM
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I started with a Powerjection system. Worked ok, not great. I was reading about other options when the ECU in it died. Switched to the FiTech. Major improvement in drivability. Sea level to the mountains, works really well.

John

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 04:47 AM
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For you die hard carb guys. I ran across this the other day.

https://www.knfilters.com/eci

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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 11:12 AM
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I had a 351w with a QF680. She ran fine and ďcold startsĒ weíre not a big issue to me. I would roll her out of the garage, pump the pedal three times and she would fire up. I would then sit for a few minutes to get her settled and off I would go. I liked sitting in her for that time as I would get the chance to to admire her, listen for any possible issues and it was one of the few times I was not rushing to get some where. I miss her so...
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 12:48 PM
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I'm running a 289 Hi-Po with an original dual quad Carter set up. They run just great and I love the look.



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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 01:25 PM
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I've got 347 stroker with Holly 750 double pumper carb. Call me old school, but that's how the cars were made originally. I do it all over again - (it's fun to tinker)
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 01:28 PM
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I'm an old school guy who grew up with carburetors. I've rebuilt those things so many times I can probably do it in my sleep. Through the years I've tuned, swapped, adjusted, modified, etc. and etc. I know carburetors like the back of my hand. And that is why I like EFI.

I'm too old and grouchy to argue with a carburetor anymore. It's like going back to an ex-girlfriend who's as fun and hot as she can be, but temperamental as hell and often a bit "off." You remember the good, but forget about the work and effort to deal with her. Next thing you know, she's got all your money while you're broke a$# is standing on the side of the road with a thumb stuck out.

I kinda approach it like this. The original concept (as I understand it) was to take an AC roadster and modify it for a specific purpose. Shelby pretty much gutted the mechanics, built it with a focused application in mind and installed bigger, better, stronger, faster and more modern (at the time) components. He did the same thing with Mustangs, Dodges and tried with the Corvette before those.

So I consider What Would Shelby Do Now (WWSDN) in keeping the shape mostly original with the intent of a street legal race car using technology available today. Blowers? Engines/HP/Torque? Computers? Traction control? Brakes? Transmission? Clutches? Materials? Would his cars be aluminum? Fiberglass? Carbon Fibre? Would he use titanium frames? Would they have a spoiler? Air dam? Windshields that don't crack? Ground effect skirts? What ignition? What seats?

The idea of a car that is not dependent on electronics is extremely attractive. But there's more cost and extra work to have it. Just like there's extra cost, maintenance and aggravation with a crazy ex-girlfriend.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 02:28 PM
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For you die hard carb guys. I ran across this the other day.

https://www.knfilters.com/eci
This looks interesting, but I suspect it might be one of those ideas that works better on paper than it does it real world. They claim you just tap into the existing fuel line but I don't see how it will generate the pressure necessary to atomize thru the injector. Will be interesting to hear some reviews.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 01:32 PM
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I too ws a dyed in the wool carb guy for decades. Took the plunge with the FITECH system. Ran into problems and system issues, but worked through it and got it running better than my carb ever did. I like the easy start and better drivability of the EFI, but like things simpler. With tools, you can always get a barb home. FI not.

Will have to see how FI tames my new motor, but staying FI.

One thing I learned, FI is NOT a bolt-on. Will have initial issues. Do research, and properly set up and equip your car

FFR5148K MkII Roadster, 331 CI 430 HP w/ FITECH Fuel Injection, 3-link, disc brakes, SN95 Cobra Front brakes, FR500 17" Wheels. Electric steering from Saturn VUE. QA1 Double Adjust shocks on all corners. Still mostly Gel-Coat Grey! Now with roll cage and more track stuff, wrecked, beaten, blown-up, man-handled, cut up, butchered, Freaky body mods, sat on by HOOTERS girls, still barely street legal.
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 01:48 PM
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Funny, the last Car I had that was carbed was my old CR 427. Since then, I've been involved with Megasquirt from the first group buy, I've only used EFI. I am just starting to build a MK-IV roadster and I have yet to ship the Engine to Thailand. In a few months it will be here with the car and all my tools, then I can get the harness built and connected to the MS3-pro ECU. It will be running ITB's from Pro comp setup for flex fuel, since E85 is plentiful here in Thailand.
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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Funny, the last Car I had that was carbed was my old CR 427. Since then, I've been involved with Megasquirt from the first group buy, I've only used EFI. I am just starting to build a MK-IV roadster and I have yet to ship the Engine to Thailand. In a few months it will be here with the car and all my tools, then I can get the harness built and connected to the MS3-pro ECU. It will be running ITB's from Pro comp setup for flex fuel, since E85 is plentiful here in Thailand.
I have one car on megasquirt. LS platform with a turbo. Runs quite well for being tuned by me. I've considered swapping out my A9L to Ms since I'm familiar.

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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 03:06 PM
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This looks interesting, but I suspect it might be one of those ideas that works better on paper than it does it real world. They claim you just tap into the existing fuel line but I don't see how it will generate the pressure necessary to atomize thru the injector. Will be interesting to hear some reviews.
I hadn't thought of that but that is an important point. Most carb systems recommend a fuel pressure regulator to keep the pressures around 6-8 psi but any fuel injection system is going to need a lot more than that. I guess you could tee off the fuel line prior to the regulator and connect the injector directly to the fuel pump.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 05:03 AM
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I ran my car for a few years with a Holley 650 DP (engine is a Ford Racing X302 crate engine). Generally ran ok, but there was a lot of fussing around. I often figured I had the jets, cams, choke, etc, perfectly tuned, and it would start and run like a top for a few days or maybe even weeks. But then some weather system or something would blow in, and it would run rough again. Starts and consistent idling were usually the problem areas. Always tinkering with it, looking for the perfect balance.

Admittedly, I live at 4,000 ft, and there are often significant changes in air pressure, as well as temperature. I mostly drive between 3,500 and 5,500 ft, and between 30F and 90F. I found it difficult to tune the carb to handle all of those conditions without hiccuping. I hated the feeling that it may not want to start again after a restaurant break, when far from home.

So I decided to give the Holley Sniper EFI a try (Iíve got it setup to handle the ignition too). Kinda looks like a carb, and the computer is inside the body, so itís clean. It took a while to install it properly, but once that was done, wow, what a difference! Now it always starts on the first try, hot or cold, idles perfectly, never stalls, and is able to handle any changes in pressure and temperature. As well, the engine temperature is far more stable, even when Iím stuck in lengthy standstill traffic with the air-con running, whereas it used to start climbing pretty high with the carb. Of course, the fuel control is a lot more precise, so the fuel smell is far less pronounced now, and my gas mileage has improved quite a bit, especially when Iím ďon itĒ for a while. The only slight drawback is that the carb seemed to pull a tiny bit harder at WOT at high RPM, but the EFI seems to improve torque a bit at low-to-mid RPM. Barely perceptible, but since I donít tend to drive around at WOT all the time (anymore... too many demerits... ), so Iím not too concerned about that.

I initially tried to save some money by using my existing MSD disti, but after much fíing around, I finally bit the bullet and got the Sniper distributor. Instant improvement! From experience, I would highly recommend anyone to just get the recommended disti to match your EFI right away, so as to not waste your time. Itíll save you a lot of frustration. Also, be very aware of any EMI in your engine compartment; I shielded all my cabling.

Guess I just proved to myself why all the actual car manufacturers, performance or not, went to EFI years ago. Might be different if I was at the track all the time, but since my driving is all street-driving, in a wide variety of conditions, this is working better for me at the moment.

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 09:53 PM
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Yep.

Originally had the stock speed density EFI setup, then moved up to MAF with 42lb injectors, pro M, hi flow pump with a Vortech blower. In the end, wanted a period correct look. Havenít had any issues with the carb drivability.



Quote:
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I'm running a 289 Hi-Po with an original dual quad Carter set up. They run just great and I love the look.



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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 10:40 PM
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Cool Carb!

I'm old school with a 600 Holley DP and a dual point Distributor.

302 w 351w heads, 600 holley, dual point, IRS, PIN DRIVE, DELIVERED 12/12/06 FIRST START 4/15/07 8 miles on gocart 5/5/07 Licensed 6/20/09, Insured 3/14 Stripe Sunlit Gold Metalic Body lexus Spectra Blue Mica 8m6
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 12:54 AM
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On my first FFR roadster, it was a lot of used mustang parts including a really screwed up efi system. It took quite a while to sort through the sensors, which ones to block and which ones can be cut out. Eventually the computer crapped out but not before sending me and others on wild goose chases (is it the injectors?). Sold it and was not sad about it. Built a 23 T-Bucket next and all carb. What a pleasure but what a nightmare to drive anywhere (large rears and small fronts).
Now I am back with FFR and with my Mk IV, it is all carb as well. Might change it out one day but not yet. It's just so right!

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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 02:48 PM
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I made the switch from carb to the Holley sniper. Had a few bugs at first I had to work out but overall happy with the switch. Big difference in throttle response and perfect starts every time
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 01:53 AM
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Just my $.02 -- A carb is only tuned right once in a while. Old Ford 302 EFI is OK if left stock. The 4BBL EFI are better. Add timing control, even better. Port EFI w/ timing control is great if you can't afford the stack EFI or a factory crate motor. I'm the guy with too much compression, too much camshaft duration, and too big heads. I have 535HP, 30 MPG, runs perfectly at sea level, perfect at 14,000 feet, starts every time, sounds angry, never dies, never floods, never needs a tune-up, annual oil changes, throttle response that will scare you, and you can let it sit all winter, reach in and turn the key and it will start and idle w/o touching a pedal. Sure, it's a little more work to set up, but your wife can drive it w/o knowing all your carb secrets. I had an early Edelbrock Pro-Flow. It was hard to tune because of my radical engine configuration. Once it was tuned, it was as easy to drive as a new Corvette and as dependable as a Lexus. I ran it the last 20 years on the same spark plugs. The new EFIs are all MUCH better. The difference between port injection and EFI carbs is wet vs. dry flow in the intake, injection timing, more balanced air distribution, maybe a tad more power, and better able to tune engines with questionable parts selection. If you price a new intake, carb, and distributor, Port EFI is not much more. One more thing. Stack - Webber style - EFI looks authentic and runs even better, but make sure your EFI controller (and tuner) has a tune for stack EFI. They carry much less vacuum at idle so "standard" tunes are way too rich.
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 02:46 AM
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 12:50 PM
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I have to run a carb due to the SCCA rules. But I have to say I just really love my set up. I guess I’m just an old school guy also, because I just really like the the idea of it, the way it looks, sounds, etc. Probably because this is how my cars were put together when I was a kid and I just really like it and it makes me feel good. I know this sounds kind of silly but it is what it is. I’m running a Holley 850 Ultra Double Pumper and it works absolutely fantastic. No hesitation, no bog. Great throttle response. Love it.

Sam

Coupe #453 delivered June 28, 2009;
First drive October 29, 2013.
Completed October 5, 2016.

461 cid Butler Performance Pontiac
522 hp, 577 ft/lbs @ 4500 rpm
SCCA Super Production Class ID 10-1488

"This might be difficult..."

Blog of my build:
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