Important Information Regarding 2015-2016 Coyote CMCV Plumbing - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Important Information Regarding 2015-2016 Coyote CMCV Plumbing

When I ordered the base Coyote crate motor (M-6007-M50A) last October for my Anniversary Roadster #8674 build, I found that Ford had released an updated version. There were many changes to the engine itself as well as a completely new crate motor Controls Pack. One of those was the addition of Charge Motion Control Valves (CMCV) also called intake manifold runner controls. The manifold runners are driven by vacuum motors on the back of the intake controlled by the PCM, and are supposed to provide better idle and higher torque at low RPM’s. The CMCV function is cited as one of the reasons for the higher torque ratings of the updated Coyote.

Neither the Factory Five Coyote installation manual or the Ford Performance M-6017-504V 5.0L Controls Pack instruction sheet mention anything about the CMCV function. Several of us, myself included, took the same plumbing and installation approach. But after running/driving are getting P2004 (Intake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open Bank 1) and P2005 (Intake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open Bank 2) DTC’s. This post addresses the overall issue. This won’t be short. So get comfortable for a bit of a read.

There are at least four ways this can be approached. Each has pluses and minuses.
(1) Custom tune with the P2004 and P2005 error codes suppressed. The manifold runner default positions are open and one can argue the benefits they provide are not important for our build.
(2) Remove the vacuum motors completely and lock down the runners. There are aftermarket parts available. Also requires tune changes. For some builds, like the 33, there isn’t space available for the vacuum motors.
(3) Change to the Boss intake which removes the stock intake and CMCV function completely. Custom tune (again) but that’s necessary with the Boss intake anyway. I don’t think there’s any question the Boss intake looks better. But the performance improvement, especially for the 2015-2016 Coyote, is questionable especially for how we run the cars. Plus it’s not a cheap solution.
(4) Leave everything intact and plumb the CMCV system to do what it’s designed to do. That’s what I thought I was doing with my initial plumbing, but turns out that’s not the case. The balance of this post will focus on this aspect and what I believe is a solution for this choice.

Out of the box, the crate motor has two vacuum lines going through the intake. One on each side. The one on the left (DS on this side of the pond) goes from the CMCV vacuum motors to a connection on the cold air intake. The one on the right (PS) goes from a large connector on the back of the intake into space at the front of the motor. Several of us dug a little deeper and found this connection makes its way over to the power brakes booster in a Mustang, so deemed it unnecessary and removed it.

For my initial installation, I installed a connector on the Spectre intake for the vacuum line on the DS. I used the large connection vacated by the PS hose as the vacuum source for the fuel regulator. There is another large vacuum connection on the front of the engine near the throttle body. Factory Five shows using this as the vacuum source for the fuel regulator. I thought it was easier and neater to use the closer one on the back of the intake. With the engine plumbed this way, it started and ran just fine. Several short go-karts seemed great. I did get one occurrence of the P2004 and P2005 error codes. But cleared them and they didn’t show up again, so didn’t pursue it. I know of several builds that installed their Coyote just like I described.

Later, several forum members reported the large vacuum connection we were using on the back of the intake for the fuel regulator had no vacuum signal. I measured mine and found this to be the case. Nothing. This certainly seemed a mystery as initial understanding was this provided vacuum for the Mustang power brakes. Various theories included the hole needed to be drilled out, etc. But I just capped it and moved the fuel regulator vacuum to the front connection described by Factory Five. Confirmed it had a strong vacuum signal and considered the installation complete.

Fast forward several months. I have been in contact with Scott (wareaglescott on the other forum) with a similar 2015-2016 Coyote build. He has been driving his go-kart quite a bit more than me, and has seen the P2004 and P2005 Intake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open error codes repeatedly. He started a discussion with Ford Performance tech support and they sent the following Coyote vacuum diagram.


Kudos to wareaglescott for his persistence trying to get to the bottom of this. Studying this diagram is very enlightening. Multiple observations:
(1) The large connection on the rear of the intake with the hose on the PS of the engine, that we have all removed, is part of the vacuum circuit for the CMCV system, but not in the way we expected.
(2) There is a reservoir in the rear of the intake pressurized by the line we removed. First I’ve heard anything about a vacuum reservoir in the intake.
(3) The CMCV circuit actually receives it’s vacuum from another connection on the rear of the engine (which we haven’t disturbed) on the reservoir. So that part is OK. But since the reservoir isn’t being pressurized, there’s no vacuum available for the CMCV circuit.
(4) The hose we removed actually attaches to yet another hose that we didn’t receive with the engine (the one at the top of the diagram) and it attaches to the vacuum connector Factory Five told us to use for the fuel regulator vacuum signal. That’s where both the power brakes and CMCV circuit get their vacuum. Sounds confusing but it really isn’t.

Armed with this new information, I decided to re-plumb my installation. The PS vacuum line that was previously removed could perhaps be re-used, but too late. I pitched it along with other unused parts. It would be a bit awkward anyway IMO. Instead I made up a new hose going from the large vacuum port on the front of the engine by the throttle body around to the nipple on the back of the intake. At the back, I put in a “Y” connector with a smaller hose for the fuel regulator. It was a little challenging because all the connectors are different sizes. This is the bill of material for what I came up with:

2 inches long 1/2-inch ID fuel hose
30 inches long 11/32-inch vacuum hose
5-1/4 inches long 11/32-inch vacuum hose
6 inches long 5/32-inch vacuum hose (this length could vary based on fuel regulator location)
3/8-inch barb / 1/4-inch NPT male fitting (Xtra Seal 15-5744)
3/8 x 3/8 x 3/16 “Y” fitting (included in Dorman 47354)
Hose clamps as required

The 1/2-inch ID fuel hose is the only thing I could find that fit the vacuum fitting on the front of the engine. Normally it’s not recommended to use fuel hose for vacuum because it’s made for pressure not vacuum. But for this short of a piece, it’s not going to collapse and should be fine. The 11/32-inch vacuum hose fits the nipple on the back of the intake. The only thing I could find to make the transition between the two was the barb/NPT fitting. Not completely desirable, but the NPT threads fit tightly into the 1/2-inch hose and with a clamp I think will be fine. I found all the parts listed at my local O’Reilly Auto Parts store. The final assembly looked like this:


I used pinch clamps in several places because they’re neat, look OEM, and I have a selection on hand along with the pincers to install them. Regular worm drive clamps could be used for all instead. I didn't put any clamps on the small hose from the "Y" connector to the fuel regulator. The barbs are both pretty long and the smaller hose seems a tight fit. I don't think they're going anywhere. The hose assembly installs on the DS of the engine and easily fits under the engine cover. Here are a few pics of it installed.




I tie wrapped it to the wiring cable added previously, just to keep it in place under the cover. Last night I started the engine and ran it for a bit with the new plumbing. I don’t know if it’s my imagination or not, but it seemed to run even better than before. No sign of any DTC’s, although they only seem to show up in actual driving. But I’m confident the CMCV system is now receiving the same vacuum as the factory setup and will work when called for and without errors.

Hopefully this information is helpful for other 2015-16 Coyote builders.

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Last edited by edwardb; 10-30-2016 at 07:17 PM.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 03:15 PM
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Bookmarked for reference! Greatly appreciate you guys putting in the time to figure out this issue. I was annoyed at the prospect of locking out the CMCVs - glad to know I won't have to.

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 04:51 PM
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Talk about timing, I just got off the phone with Ford about the P0116 code and I will return my ECU to be flashed. I also asked the person on the phone about the P2004, P2005 and he didn't know anything about it. Thanks for running this down and documenting it. Another great example of the value of this site and its members.

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Talk about timing, I just got off the phone with Ford about the P0116 code and I will return my ECU to be flashed. I also asked the person on the phone about the P2004, P2005 and he didn't know anything about it. Thanks for running this down and documenting it. Another great example of the value of this site and its members.

Gary
You're welcome. Apparently some variation in the Ford technical support. The guy we're talking to knew and understood why we were getting the P2004 and P2005 codes. As for the P0116, you can send them your PCM. Or they will send you the tuner with the updated code and you can install it yourself. That's what I did. It's pretty easy. Here's more information about that code posted in this same thread on the other forum by wareaglescout:

My MIL illuminated and indicated P0116 - engine coolant temp sensor 1 circuit range performance

I have become friendly with a supervisor at Ford tech support and I asked him about this. He actually indicated that this is a known issue and there is a coolant temp software issue that is causing this in the crate motors. Apparently when they get the factory PCM they diet a lot of stuff out of the production version of the pcm when packaging it with the crate motor control pack kits. Somewhere along the way this caused an issue and there is a software update for this.

I was given the option of sending my PCM to them to flash with an update or they could send me a device to upload a software fix through the OBD port. So if anyone gets this code in the future call Ford for a software update. Dont try to trouble shoot it with other methods.

I received the flash device Ford sent me and it took about 5 minutes to upload the fix and it has not returned. As a side note if you plan on running a custom tune when you upload the custom tune it will over write this fix and the P0116 code can return. You will need to get your tune programmer to account for this.

This is the information from Ford on what needs to be accounted for in a custom tune:

To fix the p0116 code we set ECT_DELTA to 254 to avoid the intake temperature not being close enough to ECT temps after a short soak because there is no soak timer and it is set to a max soak time every time the PCM shuts off. Additionally we set DSDN_CMD_CH to and DSDN_CMD_SL to -4095 to ensure that the engine doesn’t go into CSER mode which causes high idle when this soak time is presumed to be long. This is basically how we got around implementing a timer altogether.

This will allow you to have the fix for that code built into whatever tuning you have done

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 06:31 PM
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Two points:

1. Boy, am I glad I went with Forte's 302!

2. Thanks for documenting this in case I lose my mind in a few years and decide I want a Coyote (or whatever is its equivalent then). I'll re-read this thread and assess my skills...or lack thereof!


John
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 06:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by phileas_fogg View Post
Two points:
1. Boy, am I glad I went with Forte's 302!

2. Thanks for documenting this in case I lose my mind in a few years and decide I want a Coyote (or whatever is its equivalent then). I'll re-read this thread and assess my skills...or lack thereof!

John
Pretty funny. On the serious side, I can understand why you say that. I've done the SBF's too, and it is pretty different. But it's actually been kind of fun learning a least a little about the more modern powerplants. And it's hard to argue with how this thing runs. It's pretty amazing.

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phileas_fogg View Post
Two points:

1. Boy, am I glad I went with Forte's 302!

2. Thanks for documenting this in case I lose my mind in a few years and decide I want a Coyote (or whatever is its equivalent then). I'll re-read this thread and assess my skills...or lack thereof!


John
Interesting point #1
My philosophy going into this was the initial work getting the coyote installed and running may be more difficult but the long term reliability will be better. I don't have the experience with anything else but the install wasn't to bad. There have certainly been a few technical issues to work through.

At this point I can only hope my ease in long term reliability comes to fruition!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
Armed with this new information, I decided to re-plumb my installation. The PS vacuum line that was previously removed could perhaps be re-used, but too late. I pitched it along with other unused parts. It would be a bit awkward anyway IMO. Instead I made up a new hose going from the large vacuum port on the front of the engine by the throttle body around to the nipple on the back of the intake. At the back, I put in a “Y” connector with a smaller hose for the fuel regulator. It was a little challenging because all the connectors are different sizes. This is the bill of material for what I came up with:

2 inches long 1/2-inch ID fuel hose
30 inches long 11/32-inch vacuum hose
5-1/4 inches long 11/32-inch vacuum hose
6 inches long 5/32-inch vacuum hose (this length could vary based on fuel regulator location)
3/8-inch barb / 1/4-inch NPT male fitting (Xtra Seal 15-5744)
3/8 x 3/8 x 3/16 “Y” fitting (included in Dorman 47354)
Hose clamps as required
Last night I looked at my PS vacuum line and noticed it has a check value in it, I guess to stabilize the vacuum in the reservoir. My plan is to use the check value between the Y fitting for the fuel regulator and the reservoir. This way the fuel regulator will see variations in manifold vacuum.

Gary

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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 03:33 PM
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Of course you know I was kidding you both. It's just obvious to me, a guy who has never worked on cars before tackling my build, that sorting out a modern engine would have been unachievable. My hat is off to you who blaze the trail, and everyone who has contributed to the form, making it possible for fools like me to have a chance of success.

Cheers,


John

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Last night I looked at my PS vacuum line and noticed it has a check value in it, I guess to stabilize the vacuum in the reservoir. My plan is to use the check value between the Y fitting for the fuel regulator and the reservoir. This way the fuel regulator will see variations in manifold vacuum. Gary
Probably that makes sense. Can't hurt. I remember that from my original hose assembly and you can see it in the diagram from Ford. I'm pretty confident the system including the fuel regulator will work OK without it though. When I measured the vacuum coming off the front port some weeks ago, it was pretty constant whether at idle, high RPM, accelerating, etc. Also keeping in mind this whole circuit is also for the power brakes in the Mustang, so Ford would no doubt have a belt and suspenders approach given the safety aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phileas_fogg View Post
Of course you know I was kidding you both. It's just obvious to me, a guy who has never worked on cars before tackling my build, that sorting out a modern engine would have been achievable. My hat is off to you who blaze the trail, and everyone who has contributed to the form, making it possible for fools like me to have a chance of success.

Cheers,

John
Of course knew you were kidding. Sort of.


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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 04:33 PM
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Ok, so I had the above codes come up on my car the other day (2015 Crate motor from Summit) and found this thread trying to see what was up. The car actually felt like it went into limp mode as well bogging, etc.. I cleared the codes and it was fine.

However after looking at the above CMCV hose routing above I noticed something different on my crate motor. The hose that would run under the drivers side of the manifold did not come with my motor but those solenoids have 2 black caps on them.

I'll have to get a couple more posts to embed the images lol

So I just called the Ford Racing tech line and he said that some of the latest engines did away with that hose and those caps vent into the atmosphere. However looking at the vacumn/pressure direction, it shows air flowing into them. Am I missing something here?

Thanks,
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Ok, so I had the above codes come up on my car the other day (2015 Crate motor from Summit) and found this thread trying to see what was up. The car actually felt like it went into limp mode as well bogging, etc.. I cleared the codes and it was fine.

However after looking at the above CMCV hose routing above I noticed something different on my crate motor. The hose that would run under the drivers side of the manifold did not come with my motor but those solenoids have 2 black caps on them.

I'll have to get a couple more posts to embed the images lol

So I just called the Ford Racing tech line and he said that some of the latest engines did away with that hose and those caps vent into the atmosphere. However looking at the vacumn/pressure direction, it shows air flowing into them. Am I missing something here?

Thanks,
Chris
Interesting. So is Ford installing the engine in a Mustang and leaving that DS hose off completely? I'm guessing yes, because unlikely they would try to install something like that during final assembly when the engine is dropped in. So the two caps and vent to atmosphere you mentioned are the two locations the DS hose hooked to on the solenoids? Makes sense it would probably run OK that way. Not exactly sure what the hose to the intake accomplishes anyway. But you still need to get a vacuum source to the CMCV valves or you're still going to get the P2004 and P2005 codes and whatever benefit is coming from having the CMCV function operate as intended. First I've heard of it going into limp mode because of those codes.

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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 06:19 PM
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Thanks for the quick reply edwardb, I actually just got a response from Ford Racing saying that I got a 2017 engine and those black caps are how they run it now and they vent to the atmosphere so there is no longer a hose running on the drivers side. Guess we now know for certain. When I get another post count I can add images lol.

The other code I got was the other one mentioned P0116, do you think that could have caused that limp mode scenario?
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The other code I got was the other one mentioned P0116, do you think that could have caused that limp mode scenario?
More likely since that one is engine temp related. Even though in the crate motor it's apparently a false positive. I saw the code a couple times but since I'm not officially driving yet, never experienced the limp mode. I received the updated PCM code from Ford and haven't seen it since. Sounds like you need to be talking to them about the same thing. They ship you the device to load the revised program, and you return it to them after it's successfully installed.

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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 06:32 PM
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I just emailed them about that above correct, hopefully they'll get back to me soon on it. Thanks for the advice edwardb.

btw, here are the pics of the black caps on the solenoids for reference.

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I have a 2015 F-150 takeout engine that also uses the caps so I expect more and more people will not need the extra hose routing to the intake tube.

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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 08:52 PM
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I just emailed them about that above correct, hopefully they'll get back to me soon on it. Thanks for the advice edwardb.

btw, here are the pics of the black caps on the solenoids for reference.

Very interesting. Did Ford provide you with any information on how you can prevent the CMCV codes from occurring again in the future with that set up?
Unfortunately the guy that me and EdwardB worked with at Ford has moved on to another position. He was super helpful. IF you don't get any resolution report back in this thread and I will email him and see if he has any suggestions even though that is not really his job anymore. He was so nice Im sure he will offer anything he might know.
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 02:07 AM
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Yeah Support told me to check the vacumn hoses and electrical connections for those P2004 , P2005 codes, and that he could fix the PCM if I send it in to him. Which since it's winter still I may do that.
Thanks for the support and help guys.
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 09:35 AM
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Ford offered to send me the tuner device to update the PCM and clear the P0116 code. It was very simple. You may ask for that and that way they pay for shipping both ways and you don't have to send your PCM away.
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 03:10 PM
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What I find interesting about that change is that it allows unmetered air to enter the engine. The old routing would have ensured any air was first measured by the MAF. It must be an insignificant amount versus the cost of the extra piping
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 08:10 PM
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However after looking at the above CMCV hose routing above I noticed something different on my crate motor. The hose that would run under the drivers side of the manifold did not come with my motor but those solenoids have 2 black caps on them.

I'll have to get a couple more posts to embed the images lol

So I just called the Ford Racing tech line and he said that some of the latest engines did away with that hose and those caps vent into the atmosphere.
For later folks finding this thread, one additional piece of information. I'm finishing up my early-2016 CMCV plumbing (which came with the DS hose to the inlet) and wondered if I could just delete the hose and not drill a new port into the inlet. Called Ford Performance and the tech said do NOT do that, as Ford changed the CMCV control valve when they deleted this hose to keep the system working as designed. I don't have the new valve, so still need the inlet connection.

Short version - if your Coyote came with the DS vacuum hose, use it!
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2018, 01:08 AM
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Does anyone have a diagram of this? I'm so confused. I'll connecting up my 2016 Coyote and this has me beat!

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2018, 02:16 AM Thread Starter
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Does anyone have a diagram of this? I'm so confused. I'll connecting up my 2016 Coyote and this has me beat!
Lots of words here back and forth. But the answer for your engine is right there in post #1 along with the Ford diagram. Short summary: Hose through the intake on the LH side goes to a fitting on the intake. Hose through the intake on the RH side goes directly to the vacuum port behind the throttle body. The hose at the top of the diagram, bringing the power brakes booster into the vacuum circuit, isn't needed or included in the crate motor package.

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2018, 09:55 PM
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Lots of words here back and forth. But the answer for your engine is right there in post #1 along with the Ford diagram. Short summary: Hose through the intake on the LH side goes to a fitting on the intake. Hose through the intake on the RH side goes directly to the vacuum port behind the throttle body. The hose at the top of the diagram, bringing the power brakes booster into the vacuum circuit, isn't needed or included in the crate motor package.
Thanks Paul,
I'll let you know how I go.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-03-2018, 08:13 PM
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Thank you! On the verge of 1st Coyote install, and hadn't seen this before. Shopping for needed parts tomorrow...
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-03-2018, 10:48 PM
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Thank you! On the verge of 1st Coyote install, and hadn't seen this before. Shopping for needed parts tomorrow...
Unless you plan to pull the Coyote back out, you should definitely address the CMCV rear vacuum tubes before dropping it in. Somewhat difficult working in there even with the engine out (at least for me), don't want to imagine trying it with the engine in.
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-04-2018, 05:37 PM
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As an additional bit of information, I talked with the Ford Performance tech line about the inputs and signals to the CMCV setup and they told me that in the crate version of the Coyote engine the ECU / PCM keeps the valves open all the time. He thought I was spending extra time and effort getting the CMCV working with a stand-alone ECU when they're effectively disabled one the crate engine.

That can leave two things...
1. Hook it up they way it's meant to be so the valves are working, there won't be codes, and the intake runners are fully open
2. Disable the codes and use lockout plates like the ones MMR makes.

Both should be identical performance from the crate engine/crate ECU standpoint. An aftermarket tune may make use of the CMCV setup so take that into consideration too for future build plans.

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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-04-2018, 11:39 PM Thread Starter
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As an additional bit of information, I talked with the Ford Performance tech line about the inputs and signals to the CMCV setup and they told me that in the crate version of the Coyote engine the ECU / PCM keeps the valves open all the time. He thought I was spending extra time and effort getting the CMCV working with a stand-alone ECU when they're effectively disabled one the crate engine.

That can leave two things...
1. Hook it up they way it's meant to be so the valves are working, there won't be codes, and the intake runners are fully open
2. Disable the codes and use lockout plates like the ones MMR makes.

Both should be identical performance from the crate engine/crate ECU standpoint. An aftermarket tune may make use of the CMCV setup so take that into consideration too for future build plans.
Hmm... It's strange to me Ford would disable them but still have them throwing codes. Which was why this thread was started. I was getting codes along with others. When I was running logs for Lund Racing while they were doing my custom tune, I scanned through the files. They're just plain old Excel data with 40-50 data streams sampled multiple times per second. I don't pretend to know/understand everything I was looking at. But the columns of data have labels, and CMCV commands were clearly being generated. Finally, our club had a Ford Performance executive as a speaker at one of our meetings (one of the benefits of being located in the Detroit area) and he spoke about the various crate motors they offered, including a deep dive into the Gen 2 Coyote crate. One of the improvements he talked about was the CMCV function added to the Gen 2. A little strange if they're really disabled.

I don't know. If I were you I'd go for your option #1.

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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-05-2018, 12:06 AM
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I completely agree option #1 is the way to go overall.

I asked the question a couple different ways when the guy told me not to bother for setting up CMCV on the crate engine since it's not used by Ford. My only thought is that they kept the programming logic the same and just zeroed out the table values (or maxed the table to keep them open). It could also be their assumption that the tune would be more stable between switching to a Boss intake. Dunno.

Are you willing to send me one of your logging files? Doesn't have to be from anything current. I wonder if Lund makes use of the tables as if it were a road car engine and gets 'free' torque.

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-05-2018, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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I completely agree option #1 is the way to go overall.

I asked the question a couple different ways when the guy told me not to bother for setting up CMCV on the crate engine since it's not used by Ford. My only thought is that they kept the programming logic the same and just zeroed out the table values (or maxed the table to keep them open). It could also be their assumption that the tune would be more stable between switching to a Boss intake. Dunno.

Are you willing to send me one of your logging files? Doesn't have to be from anything current. I wonder if Lund makes use of the tables as if it were a road car engine and gets 'free' torque.
PM an email address and I can send some log files from my tuning exercise.

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