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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 04:16 AM Thread Starter
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Upper ball joints, UGH!

Just about had it with these things. Crap ones that came with kit could only get 1/2 turn on one side and about 1 1/2 turns on other, NO way was I going to be able to screw them down no matter how much heat/cold I applied. Knew there were problems so went ahead and ordered Moog k772 from Summit. One side went in ok but no way was going to get dust boot to stay on, and other side about 1 turn. And since cant get a dust boot to stay on (tapered shoulder instead of square) why bother.
Will fork out the dough for the Howe racing ones if they go in w/o destroying the upper a arm mounting threads and the boot will stay on. Anybody use these things recently? Recommendations, and sources.
Dam, never had this much difficuty on previous builds.
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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 04:19 AM
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clean the powder coat out if the threads and use anti-seaze. A big pipe wrench will get them all the way in then tack weld them to keep them from spinning out.



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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 04:43 AM Thread Starter
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Does no good to crank them all the way in if the dam dust boot wont stay on. No lip on the Moog ones to grab on to. It has a tapered edge. Am just going to return the Moog and get the Howe racing ones. Any idea which dust boot to use or can I use the boots from the Mevtech that F5 sent.
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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 08:58 AM
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Yep just installed mine last weekend. Cleaned up threads and a pipe wrench and no problems. They did NOT go in easy though i needed a very large wrench and my dust boots seem to stick in place but not sure if there gonna work or not. I tried to install them in my bench vise and that was about a joke.

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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 09:44 AM
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Yep just installed mine last weekend. Cleaned up threads and a pipe wrench and no problems. They did NOT go in easy though i needed a very large wrench and my dust boots seem to stick in place but not sure if there gonna work or not. I tried to install them in my bench vise and that was about a joke.
Well, I must be one of the lucky ones. Mine screwed in with no problem. That being said, I suspect unless I tack weld them, they will unscrew just as easily.
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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 10:40 AM
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Big pipe wrench + tack weld for me. Dust boots stay in place fine once spindle is installed.

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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 11:03 AM
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I read about others upgrading to the Howe racing ball joints and gave it a try this summer and I can honestly say they were probably the best upgrade I have done so far.
Howe Ball Joints 22320S

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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 11:11 AM
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Put a wire wheel on your drill and go around them per jeff k, works great

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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 11:27 AM
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I too had trouble with the supplied Mevotech ball joints. They would just barely start threading and then lock solid. I tried freezing them. No difference. As mentioned here, I later saw where some guys have cleaned up the threads (wire brushing, wire wheel, whatever) and got them to work. But I didn't know about that at the time, and not sure it would have helped anyway. There was almost no thread definition on the parts. I wasn't really interested in more of the same, so purchased the Moog K772's. I had the same experience, even after several exchanges. One would work, another wouldn't. Very frustrating. I don't do pipe wrenches on these kinds of parts, and frankly if they take that much force something isn't right. I too ended up with the Howe Racing 22320S ball joints, and they thread on perfectly. Very high quality parts. Used a bunch of blue Loctite, torqued down tight, and paint marked them. I'll keep an eye on them to see if something more is needed to keep them from turning.

For the boots, check Energy Suspension 5.13102G Ball Joint Dust Boots. That's the set you need. Less than $10 at Summit, whatever. Comes with four -- upper and lower. I didn't replace the lowers. They fit perfectly, and as already stated, once the spindle is on they stay in place.

Also used Energy Suspension 9.13101G O.E.M. Style Tie Rod End Boots. Pics of the completed assembly from my build thread.


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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 11:54 AM
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Just did a K772 install 2 weeks ago. The threads were crap but...what I found is that the very first thread isn't really a thread. It doesn't spiral. So I removed it using the edge of a belt sander and then it screwed in fine. Boots won't lock onto the bottom of the joint but they work fine. Once you install the BJ onto the spindle the boot is 1/2 crushed between the top of the spindle and the underside of the BJ plate of the UCA. You can also get these Energy Suspension boots.
Upper
Energy Suspension 5.13102 Front Ball Joint Dust Boots

Lower
Energy Suspension 9-13130G
They won't lock onto the BJ either but are probably a better type of plastic than the ones that come w/ the BJ


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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 12:43 PM
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I too will be ordering these boots. When fitting on the steering, one of the tie rod end boots tore at the base. I figured it was that I'm putting together an older model.

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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 12:59 PM
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Big pipe wrench + tack weld for me. Dust boots stay in place fine once spindle is installed.
The boots aren't designed to stay on the ball joint, the spindle holds them in place. The Energy Suspension dust boots work the best, they are a different design, and material.
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 04:02 PM
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Yep, wire wheel the coating off of the ball joint threads and they will screw in without a fight. As mentioned, the boots are not designed to go over the shoulder on the UCA, only the end of the ball joint.

Jeff

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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 06:05 PM
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The boots aren't designed to stay on the ball joint, the spindle holds them in place. The Energy Suspension dust boots work the best, they are a different design, and material.
Bingo! I also use the Energy boots they don't seem to break down in a year like the stock one seem to.

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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 06:16 PM
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I read about others upgrading to the Howe racing ball joints and gave it a try this summer and I can honestly say they were probably the best upgrade I have done so far.
Howe Ball Joints 22320S
Why do you say that? What makes them that much better?

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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-10-2015, 06:34 PM
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Why do you say that? What makes them that much better?
I'll give my response, since I also installed them.

1. They have extremely low resistance yet have zero slop. The stud moves with very little effort. Almost with it's own weight when installing. Does this translate into improved suspension action or steering? Maybe. Can't hurt.

2. They are adjustable and rebuildable. The lash of the ball in the seat can be adjusted. Service parts are available to rebuild w/o replacing the whole unit.

3. Kind of important -- they actually screw into the UCA. The threads appear to be cut versus whatever Mevotech and others are doing. I'm finding out about tricks to maybe make the other ones work that I didn't know about at the time. But I'm still glad I went with them.

4. Made in the U.S.A. Can't say that for the others. Doesn't translate into increased function or value, but worth mentioning.

Does this warrant the $80-90-100 upcharge over the Moog's, or $120-130 to to replace what's in the kit? For me it did. I fought with the Mevotech and Moog ball joints for 2+ days. It was extremely frustrating. My time has value too, in addition to whatever it added to the quality of the build.

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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 01:41 AM
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Why do you say that? What makes them that much better?
Hi Bob,

I didn't realize how much binding was in my steering. I mean I read about it on here but when I drove my car I truly enjoyed it and never really noticed the binding until someone turned my steering wheel (not driving just parked) and they commented on some binding at certain points and at the time I shrugged it off until it began to rent space in my head. So I replaced the upper ball joints and I couldn't believe how much smoother the steering was - I tell people it is like power steering now and of course I am exaggerating but it really has improved my driving experience.

+all the benefits that edwardb mentions. They really are a nicely made product. When you hold it in your hand and compare it to the stock ones provided by FFR - the Howe ball joints move like butter. I would challenge anyone to install the Howe ball joints and I would bet they could feel the difference from the stock ones provided by FFR immediately.


Cheers, Bob

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 12:55 PM
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Dang, you guys really like spending my money. ha, ha. Guess a pair of Howes will be on my list.

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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 01:27 PM
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Hi Bob,

I didn't realize how much binding was in my steering. I mean I read about it on here but when I drove my car I truly enjoyed it and never really noticed the binding until someone turned my steering wheel (not driving just parked) and they commented on some binding at certain points and at the time I shrugged it off until it began to rent space in my head. So I replaced the upper ball joints and I couldn't believe how much smoother the steering was - I tell people it is like power steering now and of course I am exaggerating but it really has improved my driving experience.

+all the benefits that edwardb mentions. They really are a nicely made product. When you hold it in your hand and compare it to the stock ones provided by FFR - the Howe ball joints move like butter. I would challenge anyone to install the Howe ball joints and I would bet they could feel the difference from the stock ones provided by FFR immediately.


Cheers, Bob
I'mont happy with the steering in my coupe so far. Only have 130 miles or so on it so I still need some seat time to really get used to it. I was thinking i needed power steering but I wonder if new ball joints would be enough to make me happy? Might have to try!

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 01:59 PM
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How about the lower ball joints are they the same part number as the upper ball joint?

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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 02:54 PM
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Ok, I'm from Missouri, show me. How can changing the upper ball joint make a BIG improvement in steering? The lower ball joint carries all the weight of the car, the upper holds the spindle, and wheel in alignment, thats it, no weight on it. I could see how changing out the lower would make a change in easier steering, it has the most load on it.
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 04:05 PM
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Rich, you've been here for more than 8 years. Surely by now you know that sometimes you can't apply logic, science or physics to these discussions. Often what really matters is the percieved reality that "more $$=better". I'll go put on my Nomex now.

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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
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How about the lower ball joints are they the same part number as the upper ball joint? Thanks, Bill Lomenick
No. Completely different parts.

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Rich, you've been here for more than 8 years. Surely by now you know that sometimes you can't apply logic, science or physics to these discussions. Often what really matters is the perceived reality that "more $$=better". I'll go put on my Nomex now. Jeff
OK Jeff. Usually we agree. But I'm going to bite on this one since you have your Nomex on. Can't apply logic? How about this? Mevotech's wouldn't go on, and I tried everything I could think of and found on the forum at the time. Those UCA's supplied now are nice parts and I'm not going to jack them up trying to get a $20 ball joint installed on them. After seeing my experience wasn't unusual, tried Moog replacements from two sources and never could get more than one to thread on. One would go on either UCA. The others wouldn't go any either one. Gave up and bought the Howe Racing parts. Instant joy. Went on both UCA's without a hitch. I saw my choice as complete the build without upper ball joints (probably not the best choice) or bite the bullet and buy the Howe Racing parts. Are they better parts? I think so. Would I be able to tell the difference driving one car with the Howe Racing parts and the other with the stock parts? Some say yes. Personally I don't know. But it's kind of a moot point if I can't get them installed. Seems quite logical to me.

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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 07:44 PM
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Paul,
We're good!

BTW, I was out shopping with my 4 year old grandson yesterday and found something I want to send to you. PM your address and I'll get it in the mail on Monday.

Cheers,
Jeff

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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Received the Howe ball joints and YES they are worth it!!!
Could not agree,more with your last post, since I I had the exact same problem.
Now, did you torque, red/blue locktite, tach weld?
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 09:10 PM
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Rob, I nominate your for an experiment. I think that the crap BJs coming unscrewed is due to the tremendous friction involved when they are turned. I am thinking that the Howes won't have that problem. How about try blue loctite, plus a paint mark that you can monitor. If by chance they start to move a weld bead is easy enough to do.

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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-11-2015, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds reasonable. And you may be on to something.
NO way was I ever going to get the ball joints on unless I used a 12' cheater bar, and than would probably end up trashing the a arm threads!
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-12-2015, 12:33 AM
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Edwardb
Received the Howe ball joints and YES they are worth it!!!
Could not agree,more with your last post, since I I had the exact same problem.
Now, did you torque, red/blue locktite, tach weld?
Rob
As others have already mentioned, I used a liberal dose of blue Loctite, cranked them as much as I could with a very large adjustable wrench, and then paint marked them. Once I'm on the road, I'll keep an eye on them and add a couple of welds if needed. I'm thinking they'll be fine though. From my current build:


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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-12-2015, 01:31 AM
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Rich, you've been here for more than 8 years. Surely by now you know that sometimes you can't apply logic, science or physics to these discussions. Often what really matters is the percieved reality that "more $$=better". I'll go put on my Nomex now.

Jeff
Thank you Jeff, I owe you a cold one for bringing me back to forum logic..
now can you loan me $200 so I can get a pair
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-12-2015, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
Rob, I nominate your for an experiment. I think that the crap BJs coming unscrewed is due to the tremendous friction involved when they are turned. I am thinking that the Howes won't have that problem. How about try blue loctite, plus a paint mark that you can monitor. If by chance they start to move a weld bead is easy enough to do.

So if your ball joints are coming loose, you're making more left turns? Or wouldn't returning to the centre position turn the ball joints back again? Hmmm, maybe I need a few more beers while I consider this.
Cheers
Bill

FFR# 6843, stock 5.0, carbed, 4 link, disc/drum, 17" polished Halibrand style wheels. Traded for 1968 GTO November 2016
FFR# 7366 Picked up Nov. 19, 2010. Stock 5.0, carbed, 3 link, 4 wheel disc, FFR 15" Hallibrand Replicas.

Changing lives a 1/4 mile at a time.
billybobracing is offline  
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