EdwardBŁs Mk4 #8674 20th Anniversary Build - Page 17 - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum
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post #481 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 08:06 PM
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1) Regarding your heated seat install, I am installing the same "warmseats" package and noticed that the battery connection uses 18g AL wire. With max current of 6A, it seems like this shoul be 14g. I plan to install my switches in the dash like you did so when routing to the dash I am wondering if I should use to 14g wire.
2) When at the high setting, the back and bottom seat heaters are in parallel causing the full load current of 6A to run through the switch. At low setting the heaters are in series and only draw 1.5A through the switch. 6A seems high for that little switch. Thus I am also considering putting a relay in series with the yellow wire which drives both seat heaters when they are in parallel at the high setting.
-thoughts?

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post #482 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 08:45 PM
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An 18ga wire can easily handle such low amps. It can handle up to 20 amps if the run is short, like 5 ft or less. Remember its 12v, not 110.

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post #483 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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I've installed those exact heaters, using the supplied wiring and switches, on three Roadster builds. Including extending the switches to the dash. Between the three, multiple driving seasons with no issues whatsoever. As Rich said, that 18 gauge wire will handle the current pretty easily for the short distances involved.

Build 1: Mk3 #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
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Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017.
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post #484 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-14-2018, 03:16 PM
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-Thank you for the quick reply, it seems you just saved me from having to do a lot of extra work!
-My interpretation from your recommendation is that when selecting wire gauge, I should focus on voltage drop and not worry about fusing current.
-Below I summarize my voltage drop calculations and would appreciate knowing if I am off in left field:
-----------------------
18G AL resistance/length=75mOhms/ft (note: AL is 1.65x CU)
distance from passenger seat to fuse panel=7ft
load current=6A
voltage drop on power=(75e-3)*7*6=0.45V
voltage drop on power plus ground =2*0.45V=0.9V
18G-->16G drops this by 37%-->0.57V
16G-->14G drops this by 37%-->0.36V
-----------------------
-Thus, 18G results in 12-0.9V=11.1V across seatwarmers
-while 14G results in 12-0.36V=11.64V across seatwarmers
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post #485 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-14-2018, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cobraAZ View Post
-Thank you for the quick reply, it seems you just saved me from having to do a lot of extra work!
-My interpretation from your recommendation is that when selecting wire gauge, I should focus on voltage drop and not worry about fusing current.
-Below I summarize my voltage drop calculations and would appreciate knowing if I am off in left field:
-----------------------
18G AL resistance/length=75mOhms/ft (note: AL is 1.65x CU)
distance from passenger seat to fuse panel=7ft
load current=6A
voltage drop on power=(75e-3)*7*6=0.45V
voltage drop on power plus ground =2*0.45V=0.9V
18G-->16G drops this by 37%-->0.57V
16G-->14G drops this by 37%-->0.36V
-----------------------
-Thus, 18G results in 12-0.9V=11.1V across seatwarmers
-while 14G results in 12-0.36V=11.64V across seatwarmers
I don't know that anything I said meant to not be concerned with current vs. voltage drop. Both are important. In my experience (and selection) I do actually focus on current. Typically the right sized wire for our use based on current will not have enough voltage drop to make a big difference. Mainly because the distances are all relatively short. Even from the front to the back of the car. (You EE's, be easy on me right now...) Also, if you want to be a little more technically correct, you may want to do the calculations with a bit higher voltage. Even though a 12 volt system, with the engine running and alternator in the circuit, the voltage is going to be in the 13 - 14 range. Depends on your setup and alternator. Easy enough to measure. I don't recall the seat heaters coming with AL wire either. As I recall it was copper. But it's been a couple years since I've installed them last or maybe they've changed.

But it's all a bit academic IMO. The summary from me is (1) There's no point in adding wire that is larger than what is already in the harness from the mfg, (2) As mentioned before, I haven't had any issues with the wire size provided. As an aside comment, of course good design says you always account for the heaviest current the circuit will see, plus some margin over. But in actual use, you'll probably find you usually don't have the heaters on the high setting. They run quite hot, and at least for me personally, I don't like it on that setting. Almost always only on the low setting. Even my wife in the passenger seat typically doesn't use the high setting very often. That should tell you something.

Build 1: Mk3 #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
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post #486 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 12:49 PM
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Paul can you talk a bit more about how you assembled your dash and trans tunnel cover so that no fasteners are visible or printing through to the leather? I understand you sandwiched two pieces of aluminum together, but did you attach your brackets to the inner piece of aluminum using countersunk holes and flat head bolts and then use an adhesive to bind the two pieces of aluminum together, or did you do something else? I plan to use Alex's glovebox (assuming I can get in touch with him and have him use my leather) and his instructions state to sand down the foam over the screw heads to level it, which I guess wouldn't be a bad approach, especially if the holes are countersunk.

Thanks,
David
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post #487 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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Paul can you talk a bit more about how you assembled your dash and trans tunnel cover so that no fasteners are visible or printing through to the leather? I understand you sandwiched two pieces of aluminum together, but did you attach your brackets to the inner piece of aluminum using countersunk holes and flat head bolts and then use an adhesive to bind the two pieces of aluminum together, or did you do something else? I plan to use Alex's glovebox (assuming I can get in touch with him and have him use my leather) and his instructions state to sand down the foam over the screw heads to level it, which I guess wouldn't be a bad approach, especially if the holes are countersunk.

Thanks,
David
For both the dash and the trans tunnel cover I fabricated brackets that mount on the back side and are used to attach to the frame. In all cases, they are held in place with flat head bolts counter sunk into the aluminum before any foam or covering. I get the screws counter sunk into the aluminum so they're completely flush. Then use JB Weld as a filler and sand it out just like doing body work or whatever, making sure the area is dead flat. Whatever foam and covering is used, they won't print through. I personally don't sand the foam. I prefer making sure the underlying surface is flat. I used Alex's kit on #7750 and did the same thing to mount his glovebox. Worked fine.

For the dash, I have used a doubler on two builds because I like how it makes the dash feel a little more solid. (FWIW, not required and strictly a personal choice. It does add quite a bit of work.) I use Weldwood gel contact cement to glue the two aluminum pieces together. There are probably other better adhesive choices, but when completed, the sandwich is also held together by the instruments, glove box screws, some of the switches, steering column trim ring, etc.

Build 1: Mk3 #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
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Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017.
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Last edited by edwardb; 01-19-2018 at 04:41 PM.
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post #488 of 498 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 04:13 PM
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Perfect, thanks!
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post #489 of 498 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 08:58 PM
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could you please expand a bit on the couplers for the rear quick jack bolts?
do these replace the metal spacers provided on the rear bolts?
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post #490 of 498 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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could you please expand a bit on the couplers for the rear quick jack bolts?
do these replace the metal spacers provided on the rear bolts?
No. The gas tank limits access to the back of the rear quick jack bolts. Once the tank is installed, you will find it difficult if not impossible to reach them, meaning potentially dropping the gas tank to install or remove the quick jacks. The idea is to bolt the couplers to the frame before the gas tank is installed. Then use pieces of threaded rod into the couplers to mount the quick jacks. All from the outside without having to access the back side covered by the tank. Still use the spacers, etc. That's the short explanation. There are longer explanations and pictures if needed. Search for "Kleiner mod."


Build 1: Mk3 #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
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post #491 of 498 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 01:43 AM Thread Starter
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5000 Mile Report

Now in its third driving season, #8674 20th Anniversary Roadster is just about to turn 5,000 miles. Maybe even next week at the London show. Thought I would give a report of the journey since graduation.

To recap, #8674 was ordered from a New York Thruway rest stop on the way to the 2015 Factory Five open house in Wareham. That was the day they were released for sale, and mine is number three of twenty. We were back in Wareham in August 2015 to pick it up. It was completed just in time for the 2017 Detroit Autorama, was legal a couple months later, and back in Wareham again for the 2017 Open House. Couple weeks later made its first trip to London and did some charity rides with only a few hundred miles on the odometer. Since then, we’ve driven it as much as our Michigan weather allows. Another London show. Detroit Autorama again only this time in the Ford Performance display. Made it to the Texas Spring Cruise earlier this year and back to London for the third time next week. In between, countless shows, cruise-ins, our local Woodward Dream Cruise, and multiple events and cruises with our local Great Lakes Cobra Club. I enjoy meeting people and sharing the car and experience, giving rides, plus won some awards along the way. A couple weeks ago we had a private event at the Ford proving grounds in Romeo, Michigan. Something that not many get to do. Was in a group of 30+ similar cars doing triple digits around their 5-mile banked high speed oval track. Now that was a gas. Just solid fun and great times with the car and great friends. It draws attention wherever it goes, even when parked with much more expensive and exotic cars, of which there are plenty around here in SE Michigan.

Along the way, the car has been almost perfect. The Gen 2 Coyote crate motor is simply awesome, and thanks once again to those who talked me into it. Mostly Ron Everitt at the 2015 London show. The Coyote ran the stock Ford Performance tune for the first 1,000 miles or so. Then after hearing numerous positive reports, worked with Lund Racing for a custom tune. Made a great running engine even better. I had one ride of shame home on a flat bed, which in hindsight was mostly my fault. I didn’t re-tighten the hose clamps on the intake after the initial installation. On the way to a Saturday morning cars and coffee, the intake separated between the MAF sensor and the throttle body. Just won’t run that way, and I managed to not notice it until it was back home in my garage. Couple lessons learned there. Everything about the car for me is perfect. The Coyote of course, the hydraulic clutch, the Liberty Transmission TKO600, the KRC power steering, the big Wilwood brakes, the new (at the time) 2015+ Mustang based IRS. It’s easy to drive, and as I tell everyone, is as mild or wild as you want. It’s 99.9% a street driver, and I admit I’m a conservative driver. Partly out of being realistic about my driving skills, respect for the car, plus there’s a county sheriff substation just around the corner from where I live. I almost never go out driving without multiple LEO sightings. So I keep it legal and I’m fine with that. There is literally never a time that I climb in and drive down the street without a smile on my face and feeling blessed to own such a fun machine. Many of the miles are with my bride in the passenger seat. She’s a great sport about it and enjoys riding and the social aspect of our friends and club members. But she won’t drive it. Both of my sons have had some driving time. They’re both out of state, so doesn’t happen often. But rich times when it does. The three of us are the only ones that have driven it, and will probably stay that way.

Couple late breaking updates. While researching and installing the Gen 3 Coyote in my Gen 3 Coupe build, I found multiple references and recommendations for using a honeycomb airflow straightener in the cold air intake before the MAF sensor. Supposed to improve MAF readings improving idle, throttle response, etc. I ended up installing one in my Coupe build. Since it’s not on the road yet, no verdict on the results. But decided to try one on this build to see if any difference. I bought a 3.5-inch straightener, part number ACCH35, from Treadstone Performance. HoneyComb MAF Mass Air Meter Airflow Straightener. Was an easy installation in the air filter side of the Spectre MAF filter adapter. I made a cardboard template of the intake diameter, stuck to the honeycomb straightener with double back tape, and carefully sanded to the correct diameter on my stationery disk sander. Didn’t need much and with new 80 grit paper, cut easily. I put a very light coat of JB Weld plastic bonder around the inside of the intake and pushed into place. The tube is slightly tapered, so wedged in nicely. Looks like this.




I’ve only driven the car 20 miles or so since the installation. Don’t know if it’s my imagination but does seem to run even better. Idle seems nice. In the past, every once in a while, I feel just the slightest hesitation under acceleration. It’s really minor, and I’ve logged and had Lund look at it. They don’t see anything and say everything looks perfect. Like I said, really minor and barely perceptable. I didn’t notice it at all during my initial drive after installing the straightener. Will be interesting to keep monitoring.

Last thing. Between parking it in the garage last Monday afternoon, and climbing in for a drive Tuesday night, I found I’d joined the broken windshield club. Ugh.


Feel like I installed the windshield properly. Shimmed for no stress. Don’t ever hang on it. Nothing. But three years later while sitting in a cool garage it broke. I guess this story has been repeated a lot. My first thought was to go with the Fast Freddie Lexan windshield. Michigan is one and done for inspection, so no issues there. His website says temporarily out of stock. Contacted him and was told (1) no ETA for more, (2) probably not going to offer it anymore. Also see his asking price is up to $600. So looked for other options. Many suggest getting a Lexan sheet and cutting your own. Found multiple recommendations for the Optic Armor brand. Probably the same thing as available through plastics suppliers. But available in the right rough size, plus through Summit Racing so only a $9.99 shipping premium. But wouldn’t be here for a couple weeks and really want this fixed for London next week. So decided to call Factory Five. Have a replacement glass on the way and should have fixed in the next couple days. If it breaks again, the next one will be Lexan.

That's it. Back to driving and hope the next 5,000 is as fun as the first. Hope to see many of you in London next week.
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Build 1: Mk3 #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
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Last edited by edwardb; 06-17-2019 at 03:44 AM.
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post #492 of 498 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 02:55 AM
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Consider what I did with the windshield. I fixed it with the standard two bolts on the driverĺs side , but only one on the passenger side. This reduces the torsional (twisting) stress. I am on the third summer, no crack yet. The windshield feels solid with three bolts. I don.t know if this is a good idea, but so far so good.
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post #493 of 498 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
As an aside comment, of course good design says you always account for the heaviest current the circuit will see, plus some margin over.
If the wire is too big, all is well, if the wire too small, the wire gets hotter than the seat. How hot does it get? Choose your wire well. If you want a good example, run 18 ga. from the battery to your starter. Push it outside before you try to start it.
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post #494 of 498 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 05:53 PM
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Did you order just the glass. I am considering that but wonder if the rubber seal comes with it. Mine is 12 yrs old and once in a while driving into the sun the standard pitting shows really badly.

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post #495 of 498 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
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If the wire is too big, all is well, if the wire too small, the wire gets hotter than the seat. How hot does it get? Choose your wire well. If you want a good example, run 18 ga. from the battery to your starter. Push it outside before you try to start it.
OK... I don't think anyone is recommending or is going to try something as extreme as using 18 gauge wire from the battery to the starter. The context you took the quote out of was a question from another builder (six months ago BTW) asking whether a 20 amp circuit was enough for seat heaters, which draw about half that. Answer is yes.

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Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
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Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017.
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Last edited by edwardb; 06-17-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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post #496 of 498 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Did you order just the glass. I am considering that but wonder if the rubber seal comes with it. Mine is 12 yrs old and once in a while driving into the sun the standard pitting shows really badly.
Yes, I ordered just the replacement glass. Their part number 15828. It does include new rubber seal material for around the glass in the frame, plus a new seal piece for along the bottom against the body.

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post #497 of 498 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 03:16 PM
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Hi Ed,

Working on trunk panels and just had a question about the holes on this rear bottom flange.
What are they for?

Have looked through your thread and can't seem to find a shot of this panel later on showing what is mounted to it.

I am thinking it is for clamps for the wiring harness?
If so did you use similar mounts as the ones in the engine bay?

Thanks as always.
Ken
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post #498 of 498 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Ed,

Working on trunk panels and just had a question about the holes on this rear bottom flange.
What are they for?

Have looked through your thread and can't seem to find a shot of this panel later on showing what is mounted to it.

I am thinking it is for clamps for the wiring harness?
If so did you use similar mounts as the ones in the engine bay?

Thanks as always.
Ken
No, those holes don't have anything to do with the wiring harness. What they actually are I never mentioned in the build thread. Once I had that rear piece riveted in place, it was somewhat wavy along the back edge. I didn't like it so riveted another piece of .090 aluminum on the bottom to straighten it out. Almost for sure not necessary, but that's what I did.

The rear wiring harness, after exiting above the tank, is held to the 3/4-inch square frame along the back in a couple of places with these kinds of clamps, available in multiple sizes. https://www.mcmaster.com/3225t26. Same as used everywhere else for the wiring harness. A lot of guys use tie wraps for the wiring harness to the frame. I prefer these.

Build 1: Mk3 #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
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Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017.
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