Ugh - Engine quit yesterday - Powerjection 3 help needed
Any thoughts on how to resolve would be much appreciated. I have an engine factory 427s stroker with a PJ3 on an engine run test stand. It has about 10 hours total run time on it. I start it every 2 weeks and run it at various rpm's 1800 - 2700 for about 30 minutes. At about hour 3 starting the engine took more and more time (backfires, sputtering, etc.) Once warm the engine would start right up with 2 seconds of cranking. Yesterday, I finally got the engine started and and pegged it at 2000 rpm. After about 5 minutes engine RPM increased (from about 2000 to 2500) and then quit. I attempted to do restart and got what seemed like fuel vapor out of my valve cover breather and air cleaner. The engine turns over, backfires, but will not start. Here are things I've explored:
1) I pulled spark plugs 2, 5, and 8. They are not fouled and I am producing spark. I will eventually pull all of them but I satisfied myself that this wasn't an obvious issue.
2) No contamination that I can find in my coolant (and the level is fine / has not changed)
3) The O2 sensor (which is in the collector at the end of some hooker headers) had heavy carbon buildup which i burned off with a propane torch. Engine will still not start
4) Fuel pressure is at a solid 45 psi and I can see fuel being injected into the throttle body though haven't verified all injectors are working. The fuel pump cycles normally
5) Yesterday after the engine quit was the first time I connected to the ECU with my laptop. The only settings that were incorrect were the torque, cam, and manifold settings in the fuel calibration wizard (manifold type - vic jr. / max torque 500 lbs / cam - pro street).
6) I am getting a flashing green light for the 02 sensor in the software (I don't know what this means)
I think I've fouled my O2 sensor and will probably contact pro products on Monday to get a new one. Anything else I should try? If I have fouled my O2 sensor any idea why?
Thanks,
The slider settings on set up where manifold and cam type are selected are very important.
What I do is to locate the setting that produces the idle AFR that is close to what I am looking for, then let the adaptive learn take it from there. The torque number that you enter has immediate control and is a BIG player in getting the basic curve in the ballpark. That is how I get to a reasonable starting point anyway. It works well for me. I find the cam type selection to be hit or miss. It gets you somewhat close on the delivery curve but the adaptive learn is the real wizard of the system.
Was the slider in the locked or unlocked position?
Fuel pressure is OK
Fouled 02 sensor is normal if car was rich.
Flashing green light is indicating loop condition, also normal at low temp (not running long enough)
Try the following:
Look down the throttle bores. Are the primary and secondary blades evenly open? If not, close them both then open them both slightly. Maybe 1/2 turn. They need to be even and it does not take much blade opening to establish idle of 850-950. This should get it in the ballpark. If they look fine, leave them be.
On set up menu, make sure that you have the correct ignition style selected. There is a switch graphic. Select the proper style and then turn the key off. The system loads the selection when the key is switched off.
The power wire that is hot all the time MUST be hot with the key off, or your changes will not be saved in the ECU.
Turn the key back to the on position and allow the dashboard software to lock onto the ECU again.
On the drop menu's, locate the Throttle position calibration. Open that menu. You will see the instructions. Re calibrate at full and zero throttle. i.e. Floor it and select the top bar with the mouse. Let the throttle return to idle (foot off) and select the lower bar.
Turn key off again. Wait a few seconds.
Key back to on. Attempt to start. Post what you get.
Yep you more than likely toasted your O2 sensor with the propane torch. The running of the motor without load will not keep the plugs or sensor clean. Why run it so long on the engine stand? With out loading the motor the rings won't seal completely. If you say you are getting fuel and you have compression then all you need is correct spark.
__________________
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
My contact info for bar code reader apps for smartphones
The X-Terminator - Twin Turbos feeding a Supercharged 4.6 DOHC
Astglenn,
Slider was unlocked. I made the following changes, calculated, and and locked the settings. The ECU has permanent battery power and these settings were persistent across power to the engine stand. Here are the changes I made:
torque - 500
#injectors - 4 (default)
boost - 0 (default)
injector flow rate - 62 (default)
intake type - single plane
camshaft type - pro-street
Tach input was correct as well - coil (-)
System was set to closed loop, adaptive learning, and automatic tuning.
I'll check the throttle blades later today. The idle had been running high when warm (~1200 rpm).
Wayne,
So is the upshot here because of the way I have been running the engine that the PJ3 has created an over rich tune that is now flooding the engine?
If so, how can I return to a proper base configuration that will allow me to at least get the engine started? Do I need the O2 sensor to get the engine started and running (I would think not if I have a base configuration that works but my knowledge of EFI is rudimentary at best)?
When you mentioned correct spark do you think I should change the plugs too?
I have not been able to find the Walker Fuel Systems part number that the PJ3 manual references (250-25022) for the O2 sensor either online or at Pep Boys. Do you know if there is a Bosch equivalent?
It is a Bosch 02 sensor. My LM 2 uses the same one. I bet Wayne has the number. If he does not jump on here, I'll go get you a part number, as I have a spare. Hell it's 0700, Ill go now.
Wayne is the ultimate expert on this system. I have only worked with my own. I do understand the system pretty well. I am not a professional FI guy like Wayne.
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The O2 sensor was not in stock at either Advance Auto or Pep Boys. Part is on order and I should have it by mid week. I'll order new plugs and call Pro-Products tomorrow AM and post what they say. Thanks again for the help.
Hey Steve, I was following this thread and waiting to see if you got back on track. Any updates? I have P1 installed and on the road, so I am trying to learn all I can.
Hey Steve, I was following this thread and waiting to see if you got back on track. Any updates? I have P1 installed and on the road, so I am trying to learn all I can.
So far I haven't gotten my engine running again. I went through a bunch of diagnostics and finally contacted Engine Factory (they built the engine and it's still under warranty).
Here is what I have done so far (in addition to what I listed earlier in my post):
1) changed plugs
2) checked dist rotation
3) checked spark on all cylinders
4) replaced the 02 sensor
Engine factory is having a new PJ3 unit sent to me from Pro Products and I expect the unit to be here next week. I post what happens.
If that doesn't work I'll give Engine Factory a call and take it from there.
Can you do a datalog while cranking and send it to me? I'll see if there is something odd. I also need to know the software version you are using, you find it in the "about" menu.
__________________
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
My contact info for bar code reader apps for smartphones
The X-Terminator - Twin Turbos feeding a Supercharged 4.6 DOHC
Can you do a datalog while cranking and send it to me? I'll see if there is something odd. I also need to know the software version you are using, you find it in the "about" menu.
Wayne,
Thanks for your offer to help. I've attached the log file from the engine cranking (fyi - I started logging before cranking)
Dashboard s/w ver 2_0
release date 8-3-09
Stage III calibration file version 2.0
Firmware 12405
Maxducat....how is it going lately....any news? In my case with the PJ1, the cure for my rich and annoyingly high idle was easy. I did what the tech line said and set my idle AFR higher....to around 15. Now it seems fine. As for the rest of the experience with it, it has great throttle response, very good power and no other issues for me. I like it so far, and my cam is less than ideal for EFI.....a Comp Mutha Thumpr (in a 418W) which has 107 LSA.
Maxducat....how is it going lately....any news? In my case with the PJ1, the cure for my rich and annoyingly high idle was easy. I did what the tech line said and set my idle AFR higher....to around 15. Now it seems fine. As for the rest of the experience with it, it has great throttle response, very good power and no other issues for me. I like it so far, and my cam is less than ideal for EFI.....a Comp Mutha Thumpr (in a 418W) which has 107 LSA.
I'm still waiting on a new PJ3 unit from pro products (this is being organized by Chris Nelson at the Engine Factory). Wayne Presley looked at a log file from the system and thinks that the system isn't reading the correct RPM. I checked the wiring and had swapped the coil out in my trouble shooting so I'm hoping that the a new unit will resolve the problem.
Steve
The PJ3 unit needed to be replaced however we never identified the specific failure on the PJ3 unit. At one point professional products sent me a different harness because they found that the tach signal generated by some brands of distributors won't provide a "discreet" enough voltage change to let the PJ3 sense RPM correctly. That did not solve the problem. We finally replaced the entire unit and the engine started. However, after all the trouble shooting I decided to go back to basics and am currently running a Speed Demon 750 with annular venturii.
The PJ3 unit needed to be replaced however we never identified the specific failure on the PJ3 unit. At one point professional products sent me a different harness because they found that the tach signal generated by some brands of distributors won't provide a "discreet" enough voltage change to let the PJ3 sense RPM correctly. That did not solve the problem. We finally replaced the entire unit and the engine started. However, after all the trouble shooting I decided to go back to basics and am currently running a Speed Demon 750 with annular venturii.
Thanks for the reply, I'm getting mixed reviews on the Powerjection 3 Hummm not sure what I should do.
Thanks for the reply, I'm getting mixed reviews on the Powerjection 3 Hummm not sure what I should do.
It seems to me that when some of these manufacturers try to produce a very compact form factor reliability goes down. In addition to the PJ3 (which a lot of guys on the forum seem to use w/o problem) I had a Mallory Maxfire distributor (it's a cd ignition system internal to the distributor) short out and draw +20 amps of juice frying part of my ignition wire on a test stand. I replaced it and it has run fine ever since. Anyhow just my 2 cents.
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Ugh - Engine quit yesterday - Powerjection 3 help needed
Xterminator
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