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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 02:38 AM Thread Starter
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5.0 Engine from 2016 F150

Can I use a 5.0 engine from a 2016 F150? What additional parts will be needed or changed to work in a Mk 3.1 Roadster?

What are the options for a manual transmission?

Thanks.

Wade


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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 11:38 AM
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John George did this swap and he has detailed what it took.

Part Numbers | John George Racing


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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RobBaker View Post
John George did this swap and he has detailed what it took.

Part Numbers | John George Racing
Great. Thank you. Lots of parts and pieces to purchase separately.

FFR Roadster Mk 3.1, 2002 SOHC 4.6 with Edelbrock intake and 4 bbl carb, T45 trans, solid axle with FFR 3 Link, Yukon Axles, Levy Racing rear lower control arms, VPM 3 Link Brace, Fox length axles, 11.65" rear disks, Koni coilovers, stainless steel side pipes with Flowmaster Slimline Mufflers
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 04:01 PM
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Keep in mind, most of those parts are required for any coyote setup. Also, there are many variations on the build, so you may not require everything listed. For example, you may choose a different oil pan which won't require any of the dry sump parts, or you may choose to skip power steering. That is a very nice and complete list though.
The F150 coyote is much more economically priced than the used mustang engines or crate engines, but they are rated slightly lower on horsepower (360 to 380hp vs 412+). The differences being cams, intake manifold, exhaust manifolds and a slight difference in compression ratio. Depending on your plans for the build, it may make little to no difference using the lower hp engine.

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 05:03 PM
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You will NEED all new cams for the 2015+ F-150 engine. This is something I just discovered recently and compiled to help with this question. Ford changed the firing order for the 2015+ F-150 back to the old modular firing order. Therefore the control pack will not run a stock takeout.

See this post for more info:
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 07:50 PM
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Changing the firing order in the PCM of the controls pack is easy to do. Far cheaper than buying four new cams.

The first couple of years of F150 Coyote engines had different intakes, lower compression and less power. The later years had changes that make the power output virtually the same as an S197 Mustang Coyote.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
Changing the firing order in the PCM of the controls pack is easy to do. Far cheaper than buying four new cams.
Hmm, that's new info for me. Is that a hardware or software change? Got a link I can use to get up to speed with this?
Thanks!

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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 08:24 PM
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Its a software change to the PCM. Contact SCT or Diablo Sport. Both of these companies make tuning software for Ford PCMs. They will direct you to a dealer. The dealer will need your PCM. They can make the software change. Make sure to tell them that the PCM is from a Ford Racing Controls Pack.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 11:48 PM
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Go with of Mustang cams. That, the manifold, and the compression ratio is really the only differences. The Mustang cams are going to push up the power band and add about 20-25 hp.

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My Build Thread:
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-28-2017, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhuff View Post
Keep in mind, most of those parts are required for any coyote setup. Also, there are many variations on the build, so you may not require everything listed. For example, you may choose a different oil pan which won't require any of the dry sump parts, or you may choose to skip power steering. That is a very nice and complete list though.
The F150 coyote is much more economically priced than the used mustang engines or crate engines, but they are rated slightly lower on horsepower (360 to 380hp vs 412+). The differences being cams, intake manifold, exhaust manifolds and a slight difference in compression ratio. Depending on your plans for the build, it may make little to no difference using the lower hp engine.
The 2016 F150 5.0 is 385 hp which would be fine with me.


FFR Roadster Mk 3.1, 2002 SOHC 4.6 with Edelbrock intake and 4 bbl carb, T45 trans, solid axle with FFR 3 Link, Yukon Axles, Levy Racing rear lower control arms, VPM 3 Link Brace, Fox length axles, 11.65" rear disks, Koni coilovers, stainless steel side pipes with Flowmaster Slimline Mufflers
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-28-2017, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Gearhart View Post
Go with of Mustang cams. That, the manifold, and the compression ratio is really the only differences. The Mustang cams are going to push up the power band and add about 20-25 hp.
Looks like new Mustang cams are about $100 each and the manifold used on ebay is about $100. Not bad. A few more ponies is always good.

FFR Roadster Mk 3.1, 2002 SOHC 4.6 with Edelbrock intake and 4 bbl carb, T45 trans, solid axle with FFR 3 Link, Yukon Axles, Levy Racing rear lower control arms, VPM 3 Link Brace, Fox length axles, 11.65" rear disks, Koni coilovers, stainless steel side pipes with Flowmaster Slimline Mufflers
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-28-2017, 04:56 PM
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You can order the cams from various Ford dealers online for less. The prices vary depending on the specific cam (DS intake vs PS exhaust), but the price for all 4 should come out to be about $250, or ~$70-75 each.

The intake manifold differences appear negligible from all I've read so you can save money swapping it.

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-28-2017, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Added up all the parts plus currency exchange, shipping and sales tax - $17,000 Canadian for engine, trans and associated parts. And that was based on getting the 2016 F150 Coyote engine for $2900 Canadian, which is what got me started on this whole thing. Yikes. The weak Canadian dollar sucks.

FFR Roadster Mk 3.1, 2002 SOHC 4.6 with Edelbrock intake and 4 bbl carb, T45 trans, solid axle with FFR 3 Link, Yukon Axles, Levy Racing rear lower control arms, VPM 3 Link Brace, Fox length axles, 11.65" rear disks, Koni coilovers, stainless steel side pipes with Flowmaster Slimline Mufflers

Last edited by Driver_WT; 01-28-2017 at 08:59 PM.
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 01:49 AM
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Looking at the owners manuals from Mustang and F-150 the firing order was the same up until 2015 when the F-150 changed. Given that in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation all 8 cylinders must fire, one each 90 degrees. Also, at each 90 degree interval there are two pistons at TDC, one of them is ready to fire as determined by the camshaft.

It seems to me that the change in firing order can be compensated for by moving the connectors for the fuel injectors and ignition coil. When I get my engine and control pack I will let you know. Or I will be installing Mustang camshafts.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 02:02 AM
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Bob,

I don't think that will work. The EEC looks at the exhaust gas a/f ratio. It knows how long after a given cylinder fires to look for a given change in the a/f. If you rewire the injectors and coils, I believe that the EEC will make a change to the injector pulsewidth, expecting to see a corresponding change on one O2 sensor when the actual change will be in the O2 sensor on the opposite bank. This will result in huge engine oscillations. Be careful.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 02:17 PM
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The recent Bosch O2 sensors appear to have a response time of about 100 mS so they may not be fast enough to look at an individual cylinder. However, the time/cost of swapping a bunch of wires compared with swapping four cams does not look to be a real savings so I am now inclined to install the cams, especially since we know that works!
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
Its a software change to the PCM. Contact SCT or Diablo Sport. Both of these companies make tuning software for Ford PCMs. They will direct you to a dealer. The dealer will need your PCM. They can make the software change. Make sure to tell them that the PCM is from a Ford Racing Controls Pack.
I wanted to follow up on this since maybe you know who to talk to there. I've emailed both SCT and DiabloSport about changing the firing order on the FRCP ECU and both responded as if they had no idea what I was referring to. Even when they looked over the other thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...engine-harness), there was no direct response on their capability to change the firing order, just the tables within the tune (timing, AFR, cam phasing, etc). Not saying it isn't possible with them, but I couldn't find someone in their company that knew about that capability. Do you know who in the company to talk to?

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Originally Posted by bobquincy View Post
Looking at the owners manuals from Mustang and F-150 the firing order was the same up until 2015 when the F-150 changed. Given that in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation all 8 cylinders must fire, one each 90 degrees. Also, at each 90 degree interval there are two pistons at TDC, one of them is ready to fire as determined by the camshaft.

It seems to me that the change in firing order can be compensated for by moving the connectors for the fuel injectors and ignition coil. When I get my engine and control pack I will let you know. Or I will be installing Mustang camshafts.
*edit for 2/21 - This will work with a 90 degree bank V8 which is identical to the Coyote V8. I made the comments below incorrectly thinking it was a 60 degree bank. My apologies!*

What you have listed above only works for an inline 8 cylinder. With a V8, you have one at TDC every 90 degrees in each bank, but the banks are separated by 60 degrees. Therefore, you have one at TDC and the next on 30 degrees BTDC. That's why just changing the wires on a V8 will result in cylinders 1 and 6 being correct timing, but the rest being off by either +30 degrees or -30 degrees.

2011-2014 Firing Order and Degree of Crank Rotation for TDC
1 - 5 - 4 - 8 - 6 - 3 - 7 - 2
0 60 180 240 330 450 510 630 (720 for Cyl 1 again)

2015+ Firing Order and Degree of Crank Rotation for TDC
1 - 3 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 8
0 90 150 270 330 420 540 600 (720 for Cyl 1 again)


Again, just trying to help clear up the differences and save you some time and trouble

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Last edited by q4stix; 02-21-2017 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Bank angle correction
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 06:23 PM
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I can't give you the names of anyone at SCT to help with this. I used to know David Posea there, but that was over 10 years ago before he joined them. I don't know if he even works there anymore.

For a Fox EEC (A9L, A9S, etc), there are two tables in it that need to be changed to change the firing order. One is the injector order table. The other is the bank table. This second table tells the EEC which injector is on which side of the engine (bank). This is so it knows which O2 sensor to look at for feedback. Many people use these EECs to run other engines with different firing orders and different numbers of cylinders. There is commercially available to make changes to these tables through off the shelf hardware which connects to the EEC.

In my earlier post, I had assumed that SCT had the capability to access these same tables in the FRPP Coyote ECU to make these same changes. I would be shocked if someone at SCT didn't know how to do this. The trick is to find that person.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 07:08 PM
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Now I am confused (not the first time). If a V8 fired at 60 degree, 90 degree, and 120 degree spacing then wouldn't the distributor cap (back when we used those) have uneven spacing? And the points cam/reluctor wheel too? Yet they appear to be evenly spaced.

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Originally Posted by q4stix View Post

What you have listed above only works for an inline 8 cylinder. With a V8, you have one at TDC every 90 degrees in each bank, but the banks are separated by 60 degrees. Therefore, you have one at TDC and the next on 30 degrees BTDC. That's why just changing the wires on a V8 will result in cylinders 1 and 6 being correct timing, but the rest being off by either +30 degrees or -30 degrees.

2011-2014 Firing Order and Degree of Crank Rotation for TDC
1 - 5 - 4 - 8 - 6 - 3 - 7 - 2
0 60 180 240 330 450 510 630 (720 for Cyl 1 again)

2015+ Firing Order and Degree of Crank Rotation for TDC
1 - 3 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 8
0 90 150 270 330 420 540 600 (720 for Cyl 1 again)


Again, just trying to help clear up the differences and save you some time and trouble
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 09:05 PM
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Doh! I knew I double checked the math, but I used a typical bank angle from a V6 by mistake. The standard, and modular, V8 bank angle is 90 degrees which resets everything back to an even 90 degree firing separation. Math correct, one assumption incorrect. My apologies!! This is why I'm always open to people checking my work.

So... I take back what I said about a re-wire. That should work.
I'll see if there's a strike-through option so I can edit my previous post without deleting the info and make it like I'm trying to hide my mistake

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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 09:09 PM
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I am glad to have people double check my ideas too, if I fired a cylinder 30 degrees off you would hear the backfire on the west coast!

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Doh! I knew I double checked the math, but I used a typical bank angle from a V6 by mistake. The standard, and modular, V8 bank angle is 90 degrees which resets everything back to an even 90 degree firing separation. Math correct, one assumption incorrect. My apologies!! This is why I'm always open to people checking my work.

So... I take back what I said about a re-wire. That should work.
I'll see if there's a strike-through option so I can edit my previous post without deleting the info and make it like I'm trying to hide my mistake
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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 10:41 PM
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Its a software change to the PCM. Contact SCT or Diablo Sport. Both of these companies make tuning software for Ford PCMs. They will direct you to a dealer. The dealer will need your PCM. They can make the software change. Make sure to tell them that the PCM is from a Ford Racing Controls Pack.
Is in it easier to repin the connector? Swap the injector and COP wire to the right order?
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 10:07 AM
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I spoke with someone from VMP Tuning last weekend. They confirmed that they can change the firing order of the Coyote controls pack ECM with SCT software.
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 10:52 PM
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Nice! Thanks for taking the time to hunt down a definitive answer.

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