HELP engine shuts down - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

EZBuilder · 10-14-2012, 10:09 PM

Well this long process is coming to an end.

I took "no holds barred" out for its first shakedown drive.

There are a few issues, but the biggest is the fact that above 1/3 throttle the motor just shuts off. let of the throttle and it comes back to like.

Drive in any gear below 1/3 third throttle or so and it is fine.

Any ideas?

Oh, don't know what RPM this is....... remember the "few Items" comment above. :>(

Thanks.

History at Sergio's site.

EZBuilder's No Holds Barred Build

EZBuilder · 10-14-2012, 11:36 PM

Scanned the OBDII codes and get:
P1639 Search show this is : Vehicle ID Block Corrupt Not Programed.

P2197 Internet search shows:

2195 and 2197 are 02 sensors bank 1 and 2 stuck to lean side probable causes are h02s, fuel pressure weak, injectors, intake leak.

Anyone know where to go from here?

Thanks

Rich A · 10-14-2012, 11:48 PM

EZBuilder
More info needed.
Do you have O2 sensors?
Have you had your computer reprogrammed from the stock settings?

EZBuilder · 10-15-2012, 12:31 AM

Yes rear sensors.

Yes programed by Art at WireDiet.

I did go cart it in 09, but probably didn't push it past the 1/3 throttle as it was just around the neighborhood.

Did just get the side pipes back from Jet Hot, reinstalled the O2 sensors and the O2 Sensor for the Onboard A/F ratio gauge AEM 30-4100.

Thanks,

What next?

Rich A · 10-15-2012, 03:22 AM

Check your fuel pressure.

EZBuilder · 10-15-2012, 03:29 PM

What's the easiest way?
Does it need to be running pressure? Or switch on pressure?
I guess my question is, should the pressure be constant regardless?

d42davis · 10-15-2012, 04:32 PM

What is the fuel pressure at 1/3 throttle? You should be able to monitor fuel pressure via OBD port data readout.
In a standard Ford EFI system, the fuel pressure from the tip of the injector (in the intake port) to the fuel rail should remain constant at 39.15 PSI.

EZBuilder · 10-16-2012, 12:55 AM

OK thanks for the questions and info.

I don't have a fancy live OBDII scanned, but I do have an OBDII cable and an App on my Cell phone. Assuming it is reading the onboard computer correctly.......

It shows idle pressure and slow progression to 4000 RPM to be from 68 to 63 inHg which converts to 33.398 to 31 psi.

This is sitting in the garage, its raining here.

Again, I have used this App in my Sportrac on trips and always thought the MPG and RPM, MPH and Odometer to be spot on.

Ideas?

Any suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

dukegrad98 · 10-16-2012, 01:46 AM

Assuming d42davis has the right spec, and your tool is reading accurately, your fuel pressure is about 20% low. I would guess the computer is cutting ignition to keep you from running too lean and going boom at higher loads. Blown engines are highly susceptible to failures at lean fuel mixtures -- it can lead to a whole different kind of blown engine!

I didn't have a terminator engine, but I had a real time with the fuel pump on my old regular 4.6 modular. The filter bag unit (maybe called a sock, I forget) that goes in the tank can get really gunked up, and you basically get a version of fuel starvation. I had to clean/replace mine at least once, and I think even twice, to get enough fuel. I hate to say drop the tank, but unless you used a new fuel pump/tank or did some internal cleaning during your build, I bet you find it's pretty dirty in there.

Cheers, John

tad240 · 10-16-2012, 02:27 AM

My suggestion:

I see you are in Ohio. Contact Don Lasota (Lasota Racing). LaSota Racing Services; Dynotuning; Remote Tuning; Training; Consulting; Writing; Page Layout; Publishing

I believe he is in the Columbus area and he is THE guy when it comes to tuning. Do a Google search and you will see posting after posting where Don has helped guys with their tuning issues. He has a great reputation in the tuning world - especially with Ford Modulars.

tad240 · 10-16-2012, 01:06 PM

What does your aem wideband read during your run? Is it lean?

EZBuilder · 10-17-2012, 12:15 AM

Crusing 2 lane roads I saw 13-15 up to flickers of 17 pressing on the power pedal prior to it shutting off.
Thanks

tad240 · 10-17-2012, 12:28 PM

So it's lean and fuel pressure appears to be low. But the real question is why. Could be mechanical or something in the tune. Really hard to know what is going on without a datalog with more info. What was changed in the tune when it was re-flashed? Are you using the original MAF sensor?

EZBuilder · 10-17-2012, 01:34 PM

Using original MAF.
Art at WireDiet did the flash.
Using the typical flash of delete, PATS, egr, front 02 sensors all the seatbelt stuff and all.
This is not the original computer, as it get smoked somehow between Art sending it back and my first start. Ordered new one from ford with all the appropriate numbers supplied and then sent back to WireDiet for card and flash.
At what point is the fp regulated? In the tank via pump voltage? Later via a sensor? Or is volume regulated at constant pressure?
Sorry, newbie fuelie here. But will help me in diagnosing.
Thanks for the continuing help.

mn12 · 10-17-2012, 01:56 PM

What year are you using? Is it a return or returnless system. If return there is a vacuum regulator on the fuel rail if returnless there is a pressure sender on the rail and the pump speed is regulated to get the pressure required. idle pressure should be around 40 psi

EZBuilder · 10-17-2012, 04:49 PM

03 terminator.
Returnless.
So fuel pressure measured anywhere in the system should be 40 psi?
What is the most common place people put an inline gauge.
I'm thinking pass side where tank line connects to fuel rail.
Anyone measuring this with a dash mounted gauge?
Again thanks.

Art Cuesta · 10-17-2012, 05:30 PM

This WireDiet was completed in June 06 and the build sat for years in Arizona until it began again in 09 in Ohio. The PCM was found to be defective and was replaced and reflashed.
The 'tune' is stock. From the file I see the PATS, EGR, EVAP, Secondary O2's were disabled and the fans reset (the usual).

Dukegrad 98's comment about the dangers of a blown 4.6 going 'lean' and going 'boom' are important to keep in mind while working through this issue - you do not want to run that Terminator if it's going 'lean'.

I also think his comments about the fuel tank/fuel pump being questionable are the place to start and then proceed towards the fuel rails until you can determine why your fuel pressure is low.

Keep us posted....

Art

tad240 · 10-17-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EZBuilder

03 terminator.
Returnless.
So fuel pressure measured anywhere in the system should be 40 psi?
What is the most common place people put an inline gauge.
I'm thinking pass side where tank line connects to fuel rail.
Anyone measuring this with a dash mounted gauge?
Again thanks.

The terminator tank uses 2 fuel pumps due to the demands of the engine. Do you have the 03/04 terminator tank? You can use a gauge on the rail as there are adapters made just for that purpose but keep in mind that the referenced 40psi is measured ACROSS the injector. Therefore the rail pressure will vary depending on manifold vacuum / pressure. So when boost is at 10psi the rail pressure s/b about 50. I suggest an sct tuner so you can monitor / datalog tons of things like fuel pressure and make future tune changes easily. For example, i use an sct live wire to monitor the basics and datalog with it connected to my laptop so I can know what is going on with my engine. Very useful information is available thru the obd11 port with a tuner.

EZBuilder · 10-17-2012, 08:04 PM

Art, thanks for jumping in with the flash specs. And the advice.
Tad240, thanks for all of your help. I'll check on the pumps. Any external identifying clues?

EZBuilder · 10-17-2012, 11:44 PM

OK, been doing some poking around.

Power to the left and right wires in the FPRS is 4.96 V. Seems the center wire is ground.

After checking the connection and reconnecting the plug, scanned and of course got the P0190 code FPRS error, and cleared it.

Pressure was still only 32 PSI.

Thought just for the heck, I'd see what pressure you get with it disconnected and running.

Holy Cow, 77PSI and running so rich it was stumbling and my eyes were watering from the fumes in about 5 seconds.

Anyone thinking bad FPRS? I'm gonna order one.

Maybe those were tears of Joy?

tad240 · 10-18-2012, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EZBuilder

OK, been doing some poking around.

Power to the left and right wires in the FPRS is 4.96 V. Seems the center wire is ground.

After checking the connection and reconnecting the plug, scanned and of course got the P0190 code FPRS error, and cleared it.

Pressure was still only 32 PSI.

Thought just for the heck, I'd see what pressure you get with it disconnected and running.

Holy Cow, 77PSI and running so rich it was stumbling and my eyes were watering from the fumes in about 5 seconds.

Anyone thinking bad FPRS? I'm gonna order one.

Maybe those were tears of Joy?

Great. Looks like the pumps are good with 77psi.

32 psi on the rail is about right when you have idle engine vacuum. On a NA engine, the rail pressure should max out around 40 at WOT since vacuum will drop to 0; thus the 40 psi across the injector. For a boosted engine like yours, the rail pressure will climb above 40 to offset the boost in the manifold.

Check your vac hose on the FRPS to be sure it is all connected properly to the intake manifold. Need to make sure you dont have any leaks or blockages in the FRPS vac/boost line to the manifold. You may also want to see if you can alter the pressure and/or vacuum applied to the FRPS while monitoring fuel pressure to see if it changes. That would mimic engine vac or boost. Hopefully its just something simple.

EZBuilder · 10-21-2012, 01:21 AM

All day and I mean all on this.
First the tach issue. After an new tach adapter it turns out it was a bad tach. New Autometer that worked for about 20 minutes last year.
Now the lean running
Installed an new FRSP and it won't idle at all. Just sputters and dies. Put the old one back
in.
Dash AF/R still shows lean. 14
Noticed on scanner the MAF shows no air flow?. I unplugged to get a code but no code?
Should it have thrown a code? Do I have a bad MAF? Just thinking, if it sensed no air and air was flowing, might that make it run lean?
A new MAF is $245.00 any diagnostics to run first?
Pulling my hair out. Good weather will be gone soon.

tad240 · 10-21-2012, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EZBuilder

All day and I mean all on this.
First the tach issue. After an new tach adapter it turns out it was a bad tach. New Autometer that worked for about 20 minutes last year.
Now the lean running
Installed an new FRSP and it won't idle at all. Just sputters and dies. Put the old one back
in.
Dash AF/R still shows lean. 14
Noticed on scanner the MAF shows no air flow?. I unplugged to get a code but no code?
Should it have thrown a code? Do I have a bad MAF? Just thinking, if it sensed no air and air was flowing, might that make it run lean?
A new MAF is $245.00 any diagnostics to run first?
Pulling my hair out. Good weather will be gone soon.

14 AF/R is good at idle. But not under load.

I know this is very frustrating but this is exactly why I suggested you try to get your car to Don Lasota if you are anywhere near him in Ohio. It will be money well spent to get your car sorted and dyno tuned by him if you can. You can chase this type of issue forever and a day while guessing and changing parts without the ability to actually datalog and KNOW what components are functioning properly. If your car is stock on a stock tune, it should run reasonably well by unplugging the MAF (the PCM has a Failed MAF tune built into the program for that situation). Don Lasota is a treasure trove of knowledge and is very willing to help. He literally wrote the book on this EFI stuff. He is the guy that travels to and teaches other tuning shops across the country how to diagnose issues and properly tune. I think he is like 30 minutes from you.

EZBuilder · 10-21-2012, 06:38 PM

Will call tomorrow.
How is it you know him?
Thanks. I see lots of posts on the net about his work.

tad240 · 10-21-2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EZBuilder

Will call tomorrow.
How is it you know him?
Thanks. I see lots of posts on the net about his work.

I learned of him thru some of the modular ford forums. I wanted to be able to do my own tuning so I purchased an SCT Pro Racer self tune package from him as well as a Zeitronix wideband, his tuning book and his tuning video. With the SCT PR license, I get access to the SCT forum and he is one of the regulars that provides assistance to many of the guys and dealers on that forum. I've only had email & forum post correspondence with him but he was always responsive and willing to help me. His email is don@lasotaracing.com

If he were closer to me, I would definitely have my car on his dyno for a dyno tune. Best of luck with resolution of your issue.

EZBuilder · 10-23-2012, 01:09 AM

I called Don Larosa today. He no longer does dyno testing and only does programming and instructing programming and selling programmers.
He did offer that since I show zero mass air flow, he thought I may have a wiring issue or ground. Anyone have the pin out voltages for the three wires? It seems to be gray/red, gray/white and brown/white.
Any and all suggestions appreciated!

Oh, when it is disconnected it shows 6.4 (I think), perhaps a preprogrammed setting for limp mode if sensor crashes??

mybigbrain · 10-23-2012, 02:28 AM

my maf has 4 wires on it with space for 6.
my 03 prints say:
position 2 is 12 volt wire color rd.
position 3 is ground wire color bl.
position 4 signal ground wire color tn/bl.
position 5 is signal output wire color lb/rd.
newer ones had the iat sensors in space 1 and 6.
wires colors for the iat gy/rd and gy.
hope this helps

RE63 · 10-23-2012, 03:04 AM

Show us a picture of your air intake. These cars neeed lots of air especially, at 1/3 thottle, if it is restricted at all it won't run properly, I can't tell if it is lean or rich in all these messages.

EZBuilder · 10-23-2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mybigbrain

my maf has 4 wires on it with space for 6.
my 03 prints say:
position 2 is 12 volt wire color rd.
position 3 is ground wire color bl.
position 4 signal ground wire color tn/bl.
position 5 is signal output wire color lb/rd.
newer ones had the iat sensors in space 1 and 6.
wires colors for the iat gy/rd and gy.
hope this helps

Thanks for the reply.
Is that wiring for the 03 Cobra? Mine is three wires and the shop manual shows a pic of it with 3. However there is no wiring information in the big shop manual.
Thanks

EZBuilder · 10-23-2012, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RE63

Show us a picture of your air intake. These cars neeed lots of air especially, at 1/3 thottle, if it is restricted at all it won't run properly, I can't tell if it is lean or rich in all these messages.

I'll post a pic. My AEM AF ratio dash gauge reads 10 or so at initial startup but even at idle it will climb to 15 and 16. Just sitting at 1500 rpm will push it to 17 and it shuts down the gauge.
During driving under moderate load it will go to 17 and the motor will shut off, presumably protect the motor. I think it is grossly lean.
Id really like to probe the MAF wiring to see if it works, and if so move onto something else to diagnose. I couldn't find any wiring manuals/ help on the net to buy.
Any suggestions? Please feel free.