spoek to rick about 5 minutes ago. they have not test fited the long pipes yet but they will be sending them out to me tomorrow. i will be the gennie pig. i hope they fit. ill let you guys know once i get them. tonight ill be mounting the trans and motor. been waiting on the trans mount. which it came in the mail today.
FFR doesn't have the enormous resources of a international conglomerate. The Coyote is a new builder option. Nobody but you has done it before, you are paving the way.
Let's look at the first situation - no long tube headers. First, there's no guarantee they would flow more than factory stock manifolds and J pipes. Anyone assuming a set of headers always does better than factory has drunk too much of the aftermarket Koolaid.
Strangely enough, the majority of Cobras sold had undercar exhaust. It's the few S/C's that came with outside headers. If you choose the one model with the most extreme set of options ever built, there will be compromises. Adding a motor with more issues means more compromises. When fantasy collides with reality, then ingenuity needs to be exercised. Frustration is perfectly normal, but nothing gets done with it.
What could be done is to cut up the "stock" F5 header, and mount it as a protective shell over a bullet cat and glass pack muffler. The four tube collector at the fender will cover the j pipe, the shell cover up the monkey business underneath, and you get the look. Done.
I wouldn't wait around for someone to bring a four tube Coyote header with integrated cat and O2 bungs to market. We're talking $1200 at typical rates. Nicer to have it running and on the road, build up some demand, then buy it when made available.
It's an object lesson in advanced car building and market dynamics. At one time, you couldn't even buy a 393 stroker kit. You had to offset grind a 400 crank, use Dodge rods, and custom order pistons. Things changed - but it took time to get there. The first guys made it happen, tho.
Remember, I'm pulling for ya, we're all in this together. Red Green
I am the one that started this thread a year ago when I was a newby. I looked at the catalog and saw long tubes for every motor combination around and wondered why FFR wasn't planning long tubes for the Coyote. The topic has morphed a couple of times with some things being consistent messages from FFR and some that have not. After a year of experience with FFR and being pretty deep into my Coyote build here is what I have observed and learned:
Consistent:
- FFR has never said they would do a long tube and stuck to it
Inconsistent:
- Cats or no cats? Even today they are saying they would do it with enough interest but don't qualify what that means much less a timeframe. Is that 10 firm orders? 100? It is left open ended then forgotten until they get pushed again.
- Leadtime/Availability. I think this is the one that is frustrating some. Some things I have seen is saying the exhaust will be ready by a date and consistenly missing the date and resetting the date for another 3-4 weeks out then missing it again. It has gone on for many many months. Even once they started shipping the headers they suprised some by saying the j-pipes were not ready. Not very useful without both. The timeframe has been reset with the j-pipes a couple times as well. I went through the same experience with the IRS axles - I was told that a solution was coming on 5 different occasions. They said 2-3 weeks, I waited 4-5 to call to be told 2-3 more weeks.
So what have I learned? I think that the folks at FFR truely value their customers and care. The leadtime/availability pattern to me is people at FFR truely wanting to take care of the customers but at the end of the day over committing and under delivering. The reality is that they have 100% of their capacity invested in getting the 818 out the door and anything else is not getting any attention.
The previous poster is absolutely right, this motor is still blazing an unknown trail. Even Ford hasn't figured it out yet. Does it need a speed dial to keep it from dying or not? How do you deal with the uncertainty? Take control and be patient. I have taken control of my own destiny by focusing on sourcing the exhaust from the after market and reading reading reading what people are learning. I figured that there obviously was demand for a long tube setup so it was only a matter of time that the after market would serve it (Stainless Headers and Levy now have solutions). If they did not I would have ponied up and paid the extra money to have custom ones made to know what I was getting and when.
Am I upset or dissatisfied with FFR over it? No. Being a little over half way through the build I could not be happier with the quality of what I have received. I think if FFR kept their customer focus yet worked just a little more on under committing and over delivering outside of the 818 this discussion would not be going on.
FFR doesn't have the enormous resources of a international conglomerate. The Coyote is a new builder option. Nobody but you has done it before, you are paving the way.
I agree with this.
Quote:
Let's look at the first situation - no long tube headers. First, there's no guarantee they would flow more than factory stock manifolds and J pipes. Anyone assuming a set of headers always does better than factory has drunk too much of the aftermarket Koolaid.
Don't care about long tubes. Just want anything to will work.
Factory stock manifolds aren't an option. They are much, much longer than your typical Ford pieces, and there is ZERO chance of them ever fitting an FFR Roadster. I even bought a set of SOHC 4.6L Ford Racing headers in hopes of flipping them. Didn't work. The block webbing is in the way. I would agree that using a J-pipe likely doesn't cost much power, however since FFR decided to parts share the headers with the Roadster and 33, compromises were made. The biggest being the radius on the j-pipes is so tight it's cut in half.
Are you going to tell me you think this will have the same flow characteristics better than or equal to even the stock headers?
Quote:
Adding a motor with more issues means more compromises. When fantasy collides with reality, then ingenuity needs to be exercised. Frustration is perfectly normal, but nothing gets done with it.
An exhaust solution was supposed to be available at the end of last year. Then Dave Smith said mid-February. Then headers were finally available in June. It's no late October and still no j-pipes.
Dave Smith also stated they would only be offered catted J-pipes for this motor. At this time, Jesper said they aren't going to offer them.
So our frustration is constant delays and switching what they are going to offer with no knowledge. And when the product finally arrived, it was half-assed. The j-pipes are restrictive and the drivers side header rubs the footbox. Not exactly solid engineering.
Quote:
What could be done is to cut up the "stock" F5 header, and mount it as a protective shell over a bullet cat and glass pack muffler. The four tube collector at the fender will cover the j pipe, the shell cover up the monkey business underneath, and you get the look. Done.
Who cares about looks? I just want a single exhaust solution to be available.
Quote:
I wouldn't wait around for someone to bring a four tube Coyote header with integrated cat and O2 bungs to market. We're talking $1200 at typical rates. Nicer to have it running and on the road, build up some demand, then buy it when made available.
Well, I'm currently at $599 for headers, plus $199 for j-pipes, plus $250 for cats, + $200 labor (j-pipes are SS. Welding is expensive once they find out it's SS). That's $1250 with out any shipping costs. If I didn't already mount a set of headers that rubs on the frame and run the motor through them, I'd be doing something else.
Stainless Headers was able to make a 4 to 4 header for this car in under a month. FFR has had almost 1 year to bring exhaust to market.
__________________
MK3.1 - Under Construction
Coyote 5.0
Tremec 3650
Ahh...something else I have to look forward to as I continue my MKIV coyote build...the whole header/j-pipe situation. My experience with FFR customer service has been dissapointing. I'm still waiting on my FFR steering arms since July...apparently now it's December they could be in. No one seems to know what it means to return phone calls or emails over there though. How the follow-up could be so lacking is beyond me...
sdtoothdoc- i would call ask ask for rik. everytime i have an issue i peak to him and im ble to resolve it. i was able to get him to ship my the j pipes they were shiped to me today
I read these posts and feel the pain. Felt like I was pulling teeth for 4 months on trying to get a straight answer. Then... I talked to the guys at Stainless Headers and in about 1 week of actual linear time (4 weeks total because I had other stuff going on) I had the most beautiful headers I've ever seen on ANY car, installed on my MK4 Coyote. Seriously, at least call these guys and see what they can do for you. The pictures on their site for the Coyote are of my car.
At the time I ordered the kit, I didn't see the Stainless option available. I probably still would have choosen the FF option since it is 50% off, making the headers/Jpipe option very reasonably priced at $300 total and solving the exhaust issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemsonS197
Buy the 4 into 4 headers from Stainless for less money and better performance.
At the time I ordered the kit, I didn't see the Stainless option available. I probably still would have choosen the FF option since it is 50% off, making the headers/Jpipe option very reasonably priced at $300 total and solving the exhaust issue.
Ah, forgot about the 50% off sale. Yeah, I would have checked many, many option boxes too.
__________________
MK3.1 - Under Construction
Coyote 5.0
Tremec 3650
Are you going to tell me you think this will have the same flow characteristics better than or equal to even the stock headers?
I'm not suggesting it will. But others are using them anyway. Goes to, what's the priority, running roadster on the road, or car on jackstands, waiting.
It's not my call to make for them.
Parts are just a snapshot of the development and technology put into them. The entire car is a mass of compromises and barely understood dynamics. We pick and choose which ones are important and hope the others won't hurt us. The final result is something that every maker has sorted out and tuned for months - they try out multiple versions, and even make changes during the production cycle. Some are mandatory - safety of use became an issue.
The first guy to shovel a Hemi in a Model A had issues, too. If you take up the challenge, expect that it will be. If it was easy, these would be as common as a 350 in a Camaro. Every parts store in town would have a set of Blackjack headers on the shelf. (I do.)
If you pick something different and special, it will be made increasingly clear as the build goes on. That's the whole point tho - how many Coyotes will be at the first meeting you go to?
If I choose to put 180 degree headers on a Daytona Coupe, at the present, I could expect to be the only guy ever to do it. I could also expect to get zero zip nada help from Factory Five, and reasonably so. It's special.
I read these posts and feel the pain. Felt like I was pulling teeth for 4 months on trying to get a straight answer. Then... I talked to the guys at Stainless Headers and in about 1 week of actual linear time (4 weeks total because I had other stuff going on) I had the most beautiful headers I've ever seen on ANY car, installed on my MK4 Coyote. Seriously, at least call these guys and see what they can do for you. The pictures on their site for the Coyote are of my car.
HTK do you have further pictures of these stainless headers? Any clearance problems? Have you put on the side pipes yet, see any challenges when the body goes on? This clearly looks to be an improvement over the J-pipe.
Ordered my Stainless Headers yesterday. Place the sidepipe gasket on the "outbound" end of your "J" pipe and you'll do the same. Talked with Chris at Stainless. Great guy. Takes great pride in his work. If fit isn't perfect, they'll make adjustments for free. You pay shipping, of course...
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