When Would You Have Aborted?

[Greg_M]

Maybe a dumb question but as soon as the pilot noticed the terrain was rising faster than the plane, could he not have banked and turned around and headed back to lowering terrain and more safely brought it down out of the trees?

Greg

[bhoov128]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think a good example of ground effect in action is the video posted a week or two back in the thread with the pictures from St. Bart's airport. The video was of a twin otter (i think) floating over most of the length of the runway before finally bleeding enough airspeed to touch down, and then running out of braking distance before overrunning the end of the airstrip and plowing into the sand.

[Big-Foot]

Originally Posted by Greg_M

Maybe a dumb question but as soon as the pilot noticed the terrain was rising faster than the plane, could he not have banked and turned around and headed back to lowering terrain and more safely brought it down out of the trees?

Greg

Turning an airplane introduces more drag which would have reduced his speed and what little lift the wings were generating. He would have most likely stalled the inboard wing and crashed before the airplane could even begin to spin.

[Big-Foot]

And as my primary flight instructor taught me -

"In aviation, there is no such thing as a dumb question. Just dumb mistakes. And even if there was such a thing as a dumb question, it would be a whole lot easier to handle than a dumb mistake!"

[Greg_M]

Originally Posted by Big-Foot

Turning an airplane introduces more drag which would have reduced his speed and what little lift the wings were generating. He would have most likely stalled the inboard wing and crashed before the airplane could even begin to spin.

I took a few fight instruction hours in a '62 Cessna 150B about 36 years ago out of Hobby (HOU) in Houston. I remember we did a maneuver where we went to full flaps at 70 kts reduced our power, and were able to maintain level flight as slow as 45 kts.

Not knowing this guys air speed, I was just thinking he might be able to turn the plane carefully enough (way before he was 10 ft over the tree tops) to prevent a stall and the altitude he lost might be offset by the ground clearance increasing underneath him as the plane headed back down toward the strip. Seemed to me he had decent air speed but his rate of climb was less than that of the ground coming up under him on the hillside.

I wonder what he thinking as he saw the trees coming up fast?

Greg


EDIT: So my wife comes in and sees me looking at Stinson 108's and says, "What? Are you going to buy a plane now?" I say, "No honey, I have no place to put it "

[Hoosier]

Originally Posted by TNCobra

Probably when I ran out of dirt runway.

Originally Posted by ROB J

I'm no flipping pilot, and realized something wasn't right when they were barely able to get airborne. How could that pilot be so stupid to not realize they were too heavy for conditions?

Yup...

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Greg_M

I took a few fight instruction hours in a '62 Cessna 150B about 36 years ago out of Hobby (HOU) in Houston. I remember we did a maneuver where we went to full flaps at 70 kts reduced our power, and were able to maintain level flight as slow as 45 kts.

Not knowing this guys air speed, I was just thinking he might be able to turn the plane carefully enough (way before he was 10 ft over the tree tops) to prevent a stall and the altitude he lost might be offset by the ground clearance increasing underneath him as the plane headed back down toward the strip. Seemed to me he had decent air speed but his rate of climb was less than that of the ground coming up under him on the hillside.

I wonder what he thinking as he saw the trees coming up fast?

Greg


EDIT: So my wife comes in and sees me looking at Stinson 108's and says, "What? Are you going to buy a plane now?" I say, "No honey, I have no place to put it "

When you're that close to the edge of a stall, just about any turning movement is going to cause loss of altitude. While I was sitting here watching the video I could feel the pucker factor. I'm sure the pilot was hoping and praying that he would be able to slowly but surely climb out, but it just didn't happen. Yes, now that we can Monday morning quarterback him and we know that he crashed, maybe it would have been better to try to slowly turn the other direction. Had he turned the other direction and crashed everyone would wonder if he could have just slowly climbed out rather than attempting a turn.

Yes, maintaining altitude with full flaps at 45 KTS. might be possible at 2500 ft. If you're at a density altitude of 9500 ft. you probably aren't going to be maintaining altitude at 45 kts. As the air gets thinner, you require more airflow (higher speed) over the wings to maintain altitude, due to the reduced lift the wings are providing.

For you guys wondering about "ground effect", it has been pretty well explained. When coming in for a landing, right about the time you flare, as a pilot you can literally feel what feels like a pillow of air under you. When taking off, if you want to maintain a close relationship (2-3 ft.) to the ground, you literally have to push down on the stick to keep the plane down, otherwise ground effect wants to push you up.

[Big-Foot]

Something else that was not mentioned here...

Stall speed increases with altitude - yes, even density altitude..

[Stinson Pilot]

Originally Posted by Zulu

Doug correct me if wrong but are flaps not a lever between seats like the early Piper Arrows, so you have to bend over to lift/ release it

Yep...

[Stinson Pilot]

Originally Posted by Big-Foot

Something else that was not mentioned here...

Stall speed increases with altitude - yes, even density altitude..

True...but it's true airspeed that increases. Indicated airspeed stays the same.

[NAGA]

Don't forget the thin air is also killing engine power even with it leaned properly. Yeah, I didn't see any effort to lean before starting the take-off roll.
About halfway down the strip is was about time to head back to base camp and wait for the temps to cool off.
Very scary.

As was noted, the one thing he did right was to keep flying into the crash rather than stall it.

d

[happybigblock]

I was a passenger years ago in a single engine, similar plane years ago when we traveled to Englishtown, NJ to the NHRA event. They have an air strip parallel to the drag strip. Four guys, full fuel, and two five gallon cans of avgas in the trunk of the plane. When we left, we couldn't get enough lift (surprise) and barely made it through a hole in the tree line. We actually dropped below the tree line again on the other side of the tree line, luckily in a field. We slowly, finally gained enough altitude across the field. I nearly shat myself. I have driven back and forth to that event ever since.

-Steve

[NAGA]

Not sure that was the case here but it seems like "get home itis" claims a pilot or two every season in the mountains. Vacation's over, time to get people home. The pilot doesn't want to tell his buddies, "call work we're going to spend another night." And off they go, flying into conditions they shouldn't.


d

[Genghis]

Originally Posted by NAGA

Not sure that was the case here but it seems like "get home itis" claims a pilot or two every season in the mountains. Vacation's over, time to get people home. The pilot doesn't want to tell his buddies, "call work we're going to spend another night." And off they go, flying into conditions they shouldn't.


d

Good point. Also works en route, as the clouds come down and the ground comes up, or it looks possible to squeeze between merging cells, and its only fifty more miles....

In this case it was something vastly more important than just home or work that was driving the attempted flight -- DINNER!

[Stinson Pilot]

The interview with the pilot.

http://www.aopa.org/training/article...-to-abort.html

For you pilots...you'll find...shall we say, issues.

[geoffav]

Originally Posted by Stinson Pilot

The interview with the pilot.

YouTube accident pilot: ‘I was going to abort’

For you pilots...you'll find...shall we say, issues.

He would have looked better if he had no recollection of the whole day.

[mcmustang]

Originally Posted by JJ in Cbus

Right after I did the weight and balance calculation.
How over weight was this guy?

I'm not a pilot, but I can do math. I would have aborted right before starting the engine.

[Someday I Suppose]

I think they should write a sit-com based on the whole thing, these guys get stuck in the back woods and have to survive. Sort of a take on Gilligans Island...