This has to do with a sticky cruise control cable. Not a vehicle that has a potential issue with a drive by wire controller that resulted in a recorded incident where a LEO and his family were killed.
Did you hear anything about the Toyota thing before the LEO died? Nope. Was the story about a recall? Nope. It was about a horrific crash that could be sensationalized due to the recorded phone call to 911 by the wife as they were hurling towards their deaths.
Recalls happen almost every day. It's just not that big a thing.
Did you hear anything about the Toyota thing before the LEO died? Nope. Was the story about a recall? Nope. It was about a horrific crash that could be sensationalized due to the recorded phone call to 911 by the wife as they were hurling towards their deaths.
Recalls happen almost every day. It's just not that big a thing.
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This has to do with a sticky cruise control cable. Not a vehicle that has a potential issue with a drive by wire controller that resulted in a recorded incident where a LEO and his family were killed.
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I never did figure out why he didn't put it in neutral.....
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I never did figure out why he didn't put it in neutral.....
I think more people are prone to panic these days. We place a lot of trust in our machines and assume they will always work properly. I wonder if the Escape fatality in the report was a similar issue.
The issues with the new escape hit close to home. We considered buying one about two weeks ago but I talked my wife into a new Explorer instead. I scored some points with that decision the moment we heard about the recall. My exact words were, "I don't like buying the first year of a new model car". In aviation terms, don't fly the "A" model of anything.
Don't forget, they just had a recall on the 2013 new Escape also. A fuel line was installed incorrectly and could cause the vehicle to catch fire. The vehicles were to be towed or trailered to dealers.
The issues with the new escape hit close to home. We considered buying one about two weeks ago but I talked my wife into a new Explorer instead. I scored some points with that decision the moment we heard about the recall. My exact words were, "I don't like buying the first year of a new model car".
Uhhhh, the vehicles included in the recall being discussed are 2001-2004...
Uhhhh, the vehicles included in the recall being discussed are 2001-2004...
Jeff
See post 10 above. Although, I also prefer the new Explorer over the 01-04 Escape. With this latest recall of the 2013, the name of the car is ironic.
The recall of the 2013 seems much worse to me. I've been in a few vehicles that were on fire, I didn't like it much. The recall of the 01-04 would only bother me if I loaned my vehicle out. I don't remember EVER flooring any of my SUVs and I'm certain my wife never has.
FYI, we have decided to buy a new Explorer but haven't done it yet. I'm hoping for a better incentive offer rebate/0.0%. I like keeping my cash in the bank and drafting it out a month at a time. Gas prices and these recalls might play into my hand.
To answer your question, I guess it's the same mindset we see on this forum where it's ok to post links and make fun of other cars guys' builds on Ebay but the mods start editing the minute you express your opinion about some of the stuff you see here. SMH. That's what happens when you play by two different sets of rules.
I knew the Officer that was driving this vehicle (and several of the MAIT unit members that investigated this collision.) The car would not shift into neutral, he was off the gas but the car would not slow, he had applied the brakes but wore them down to metal without any appreciable slowing. He did not panic but simply ran out of options....
Ray
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I knew the Officer that was driving this vehicle (and several of the MAIT unit members that investigated this collision.) The car would not shift into neutral, he was off the gas but the car would not slow, he had applied the brakes but wore them down to metal without any appreciable slowing. He did not panic but simply ran out of options....
Ray
Well that sucks, I never heard the whole story about that accident. I should have been more clear in my post too. It was meant as a general statement about the behavior of the drivers I encounter. Sometimes you are handed a set of circumstances that defy resolution.
While we checked out the NEW Escape today (recall complied with already) I had to stick with the Explorer. I liked the Escape and it was a bit cheaper but still a first year for this version.
The NEW Explorer is very cool and makes the wife happy. It's like a big smartphone on wheels.
I will be anxious to hear how you like it after a while. We test drove one yesterday to see if my wife liked it compared to her 01 she has owned since new. You are right all the gadgets are like an iPhone on wheels. Did you get the ecoboost?
I will be anxious to hear how you like it after a while. We test drove one yesterday to see if my wife liked it compared to her 01 she has owned since new. You are right all the gadgets are like an iPhone on wheels. Did you get the ecoboost?
No ecoboost. We have a short trip to FL today which should be telling. I had to move some BSA stuff and boys yesterday and it was plenty roomy. Seats are very easy to retract. So far it scores high, slightly less range than my 07 v8 Explorer???? That might be a computer learning issue.
Well, as much as I hate to admit Hoosier is right, he is here. A 17 y.o. girl died over this issue... The Escape had already been recalled once before over this issue.
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I never did figure out why he didn't put it in neutral.....
Panic is a hell of a drug....
I work as an engineer in drive by wire safety. I induce failures all the time. It is really quite alarming the first few times even when you know what is coming. We have kill switches and can turn the failures off, but a car going WOT without your brain thinking it should be WOT is pretty darn wild.
That being said there was a really easy solution to this that Toyota totally missed and that is Brake Throttle Override.
You can use a very simple set of algorithms to monitor pedal behavior along with vehicle behavior to make a very educated decision that the pedal is likely not intended to be pressed at all. In this case you can ignore pedal input and ramp throttle down to a safe amount.
Regardless of the driver being a dummy and mashing the pedal down by accident or the pedal being actually stuck, this algorithm takes care of it.
Toyota failed in this matter regardless of the actual presence of a failure or not.
It has always amazed me how Ford gets away with the millions upon millions of cars that have been recalled for serious safety concerns. Yet Toyota really took it in the shorts. It seems as though Ford has some type of golden pass with the American news media.
Oh, sure the news media makes the obligatory announcement that Ford is recalling 2.3 million trucks for a faulty cruise control module that can result in the car catching on fire in your garage. And they report that people died because of this very problem. But then that's it. No repeated beating the drums to stir up public outcry. No nagging on the subject when Ford recalls another 1 or 2 million trucks or SUVs a few months later. No putting the dots together that Ford seemingly avoided attention by splitting up what should have been a single recall of over 11 million trucks and SUV's into a bunch of smaller ones.
And oh, when the final government and independent reports came out, vindicating the Toyota fly by wire systems of any faults, did we hear the news media making as big of a deal of this as they did of some of the accidents blamed on Toyota?
Sometimes I wonder if so much of public outcry is a matter of how the news media paints things. And so much of how the news media reports things all depends on if other news is slow at the time or busy. Who cares about a couple silly Ford recalls that killed someone when the nation is in the middle of a presidential election campaign and summer Olympic games? But have a recall when there is no other exciting news, and you are toast.
It has always amazed me how Ford gets away with the millions upon millions of cars that have been recalled for serious safety concerns. Yet Toyota really took it in the shorts. It seems as though Ford has some type of golden pass with the American news media.
Oh, sure the news media makes the obligatory announcement that Ford is recalling 2.3 million trucks for a faulty cruise control module that can result in the car catching on fire in your garage. And they report that people died because of this very problem. But then that's it. No repeated beating the drums to stir up public outcry. No nagging on the subject when Ford recalls another 1 or 2 million trucks or SUVs a few months later. No putting the dots together that Ford seemingly avoided attention by splitting up what should have been a single recall of over 11 million trucks and SUV's into a bunch of smaller ones.
And oh, when the final government and independent reports came out, vindicating the Toyota fly by wire systems of any faults, did we hear the news media making as big of a deal of this as they did of some of the accidents blamed on Toyota?
Sometimes I wonder if so much of public outcry is a matter of how the news media paints things. And so much of how the news media reports things all depends on if other news is slow at the time or busy. Who cares about a couple silly Ford recalls that killed someone when the nation is in the middle of a presidential election campaign and summer Olympic games? But have a recall when there is no other exciting news, and you are toast.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Of course the media sensationalizes things!
FWIW Toyota did supposedly have issues with the drive by wire. The throttle override algorithms and logic were terrible.
That being said there was a really easy solution to this that Toyota totally missed and that is Brake Throttle Override.
You can use a very simple set of algorithms to monitor pedal behavior along with vehicle behavior to make a very educated decision that the pedal is likely not intended to be pressed at all. In this case you can ignore pedal input and ramp throttle down to a safe amount.
Regardless of the driver being a dummy and mashing the pedal down by accident or the pedal being actually stuck, this algorithm takes care of it.
Aaron, I appreciate your insight as an engineer for these systems. The current evolution of automatic controls is a little disturbing to me though. I'm not sure I'm ready to trust an algorithm to correctly know when to override my driver inputs (even though it's probably being done to some extent already on our current daily drivers). Maybe I have an accident but the vehicle is still operable and there is an 18 wheeler bearing down on me and I need to stomp the throttle to escape. How does the system know?
Car and Driver ran some tests to address the issue that the car could not stop when the throttle went wide open. They tested a number of vehicles including a Toyota up to a Mustang GT (might have been a Shelby). The tests were run at several speeds. In ALL cases the cars could be safely stopped with some increase in stopping distance.
Sure they didn't test every car-powertrain combination, but the take-away is that brakes are way over-designed and can stop even the high performance cars.
So, I guess I just don't buy the argument that the cars in these incidents were unstoppable. More than likely the cause was driver error. This was also the finding way back in the day of the infamous Audi "unintended acceleration" days.
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Aaron, I appreciate your insight as an engineer for these systems. The current evolution of automatic controls is a little disturbing to me though. I'm not sure I'm ready to trust an algorithm to correctly know when to override my driver inputs (even though it's probably being done to some extent already on our current daily drivers). Maybe I have an accident but the vehicle is still operable and there is an 18 wheeler bearing down on me and I need to stomp the throttle to escape. How does the system know?
"Save the girl!" from I, Robot comes to mind.
Some systems are safe, some are not very safe, at all. Obviously I am biased to Chrysler products but we spend a ton of time ensuring that that car is as operable as possible in all failure modes, while remaining safe to the occupants. I can't really get into details of the algorithms, but don't worry about the baby sitting being too aggressive. There is a large team of folks (me included) that do this for our full time jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyno7351
Car and Driver ran some tests to address the issue that the car could not stop when the throttle went wide open. They tested a number of vehicles including a Toyota up to a Mustang GT (might have been a Shelby). The tests were run at several speeds. In ALL cases the cars could be safely stopped with some increase in stopping distance.
Sure they didn't test every car-powertrain combination, but the take-away is that brakes are way over-designed and can stop even the high performance cars.
So, I guess I just don't buy the argument that the cars in these incidents were unstoppable. More than likely the cause was driver error. This was also the finding way back in the day of the infamous Audi "unintended acceleration" days.
Go drive a car and hold it WOT and pump the brakes. I guarantee you won't be able to stop in all vehicles. With the boost bled off the cars can be unstoppable. Sure, there are low power vehicles that this isn't the case in, but in many of the vehicles I work on, with all boost bled from the booster at full torque, you may not be able to stop them.
Regardless, requiring a hard deliberate consistent press on the brake pedal to overcome throttle failure is foolish when we have complete freedom over control algorithms and a bevy of sensors to gather behavioral data from that we can predict driver intent with.
I will be anxious to hear how you like it after a while. We test drove one yesterday to see if my wife liked it compared to her 01 she has owned since new. You are right all the gadgets are like an iPhone on wheels. Did you get the ecoboost?
Wife and I bought the Explorer Limited a few months ago and we are both in love with the car. We originally looked at the Lexus, BMW and Audi SUVs but we both liked the options and drive of the Explorer. After using the adaptive cruise control it sucks not driving a car that has it
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Car and Driver ran some tests to address the issue that the car could not stop when the throttle went wide open. They tested a number of vehicles including a Toyota up to a Mustang GT (might have been a Shelby). The tests were run at several speeds. In ALL cases the cars could be safely stopped with some increase in stopping distance.
Sure they didn't test every car-powertrain combination, but the take-away is that brakes are way over-designed and can stop even the high performance cars.
So, I guess I just don't buy the argument that the cars in these incidents were unstoppable. More than likely the cause was driver error. This was also the finding way back in the day of the infamous Audi "unintended acceleration" days.
One thing I was thinking of last night is that we are assuming the runaway with the trooper in it had good brakes even though they were said to be down to the metal after the crash. I wonder if the brakes on the loaner were shot to begin with preventing him from being able to stop when the runaway happened.
If anything good came out of the sensationalism of the LEO Toyota incident it was that I learned a very easy procedure to stop the vehicle. I'm just wondering, did THAT message get accross to people? How many on here that heard about the incident also heard the one simple thing the officer could have done that would have stopped the car safely?
Don't say what it is right away here, I am more interested in if the MESSAGE got through, not the specific procedure that was needed.
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