Statistics show that most people who perpetrate this sort of thing stop when confronted. This guy, armed to the teeth and in full body armor, gave up without a fight in the parking lot right after his atrocity. My guess is that a good guy with a gun could have stopped him mid-spree just by firing in his general direction. A hit on him, even if it would have been on armor, would have been a powerful distraction to him, and he probably would have stopped. A lucky/well placed shot to the face would certainly have stopped him. Of course, this is all conjecture.
There probably were concealed carriers in the theater, and for whatever reason, they chose not to engage the shooter. Most CC folks know the cost of firing a bullet - every one has a lawyer attached to it.
If you think you can ban guns, good luck with that. The technology exists, and they are far too easy to manufacture. Tough to un-invent something. Until a technology is invented that makes guns obsolete, they will be used, for good and bad.
If you think you can ban madmen, good luck with that, too.
Learn to live with this sort of thing. Some people pray. Some prepare.
__________________
You should have YOUR head examined.
If EVERYONE in that theater was armed with a firearm, do you think less people would have been killed? Do you think the perp would still be alive? Do you think he would have done the crime in the first place?
Too bad he didn't happen upon a theater filled with off duty/retired LEOs!
Did you see my earlier post? When we get to the point where everyone is packing, the nutjobs will plant bombs. It's already occuring in other parts of the world based on politics or religion. Look at what just happened in Bulgaria to the Israeli tourists.
The problem is not whether there are too many guns or not enough guns.
It's NOT the guns, it's the nutjobs.
Nutjobs will always find a way to beat the system. It's just a matter of time before bombs become the preferred method.
d
__________________
Donald Rogus
3733k Stock 5.0, 3:55 gears, 15" Halibrands, '91 donor, Tremec 3550. "Arrest Me" Yellow / Black Stripes.
My car: a lightweight, precision-guided, sledgehammer.
Nutjobs will always find a way to beat the system. It's just a matter of time before bombs become the preferred method.
d
Unfortunately, there isn't anything anyone can do to prevent these atrocities. With that sad fact in your mind, what will you do next time you go to the theater?
__________________
You should have YOUR head examined.
Unfortunately, there isn't anything anyone can do to prevent these atrocities. With that sad fact in your mind, what will you do next time you go to the theater?
We went Friday afternoon but we went to see Sunrise Kingdom. Probably not the kind of movie that attracts nutjobs eh?
That's a good question mc.
Keep an eye on the exits for sure.
I read where the owner of a shooting range decided the soon-to-be murderer was not fit to come to his range based on something like his rambling outgoing phone message? Is that right?
If only.....
d
__________________
Donald Rogus
3733k Stock 5.0, 3:55 gears, 15" Halibrands, '91 donor, Tremec 3550. "Arrest Me" Yellow / Black Stripes.
My car: a lightweight, precision-guided, sledgehammer.
Wow, they just said on the news that he was living off of $26,000 per year federal grant money and no doubt used that money to buy the weapons and ammo..
__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Frequently the justification for doing nothing is the exaggeration of lesser evils.
Some are having doubts about the body armor claim. For example, the Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest he bought is not body armor:
Mike
__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Frequently the justification for doing nothing is the exaggeration of lesser evils.
We went Friday afternoon but we went to see Sunrise Kingdom. Probably not the kind of movie that attracts nutjobs eh?
That's a good question mc.
Keep an eye on the exits for sure.
I read where the owner of a shooting range decided the soon-to-be murderer was not fit to come to his range based on something like his rambling outgoing phone message? Is that right?
If only.....
d
Yep, I read the interview with the guy that owns the range. It sounds like he was a GO for membership until the owner tried to contact him and got the answering machine. Even so, after that, he was going to have to pass a bunch of training classes to become a shooter at the range, much less be considered for membership.
I can tell you that I shoot at a local range about once a month and have never gone through any of that training stuff. I go as a "guest" at one of the days each month that they have open shooting days. Too many horror stories about the government wanting to hold "members" of gun clubs and shooting ranges liable for MASSIVE clean up costs for me to actually want to join as a member.
Some are having doubts about the body armor claim. For example, the Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest he bought is not body armor:
Mike
It's just a "Load Bearing" vest with mag pouches.
Definitely NOT SBA (Soft Body Armor ) or Tactical BA ( Body Armor ).
Paul
__________________
FFR 4859GT 414W, Tremec TKO 5spd. IRS w/3.55 and Torsen diff. 13" dual-piston front & 12" rear disc brakes. 03 Cobra wheels, 275/40 & 315/35 tires. Possibly the only person in the world that is currently building a Spyder GT.
"A veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The 'United States of America', for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'"
The killer got a $26k federal grant. It gave the graduate student a $26,000 stipend and paid his tuition for the highly competitive neuroscience program at the University of Colorado in Denver.
So...did taxpayer money buy the equipment he used?
Some are having doubts about the body armor claim. For example, the Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest he bought is not body armor:
Mike
Where did you read that he was only wearing that gear vest? I have read over and over that he had a ballistic helmet and kevlar throat, chest and lower pelvic protection.
Also, re: the "piece of equipment that was out of the norm" that they keep talking about that drew officers attention to him in the parking lot; just a guess, but I bet it he wasn't wearing vests that said POLICE across his chest and back.. But that's just a guess..
Statistics show that most people who perpetrate this sort of thing stop when confronted. This guy, armed to the teeth and in full body armor, gave up without a fight in the parking lot right after his atrocity. My guess is that a good guy with a gun could have stopped him mid-spree just by firing in his general direction. A hit on him, even if it would have been on armor, would have been a powerful distraction to him, and he probably would have stopped. A lucky/well placed shot to the face would certainly have stopped him. Of course, this is all conjecture.
There probably were concealed carriers in the theater, and for whatever reason, they chose not to engage the shooter. Most CC folks know the cost of firing a bullet - every one has a lawyer attached to it.
If you think you can ban guns, good luck with that. The technology exists, and they are far too easy to manufacture. Tough to un-invent something. Until a technology is invented that makes guns obsolete, they will be used, for good and bad.
If you think you can ban madmen, good luck with that, too.
Learn to live with this sort of thing. Some people pray. Some prepare.
Where did you read that he was only wearing that gear vest? I have read over and over that he had a ballistic helmet and kevlar throat, chest and lower pelvic protection.
Also, re: the "piece of equipment that was out of the norm" that they keep talking about that drew officers attention to him in the parking lot; just a guess, but I bet it he wasn't wearing vests that said POLICE across his chest and back.. But that's just a guess..
The press is notoriously bad with technical details about guns and body armor, etc. He might have ordered that vest recently and not work nit or he could have worn it over body armor. Like I said, there is some doubt of the account.
Mike
__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Frequently the justification for doing nothing is the exaggeration of lesser evils.
The press is notoriously bad with technical details about guns and body armor, etc. He might have ordered that vest recently and not work nit or he could have worn it over body armor. Like I said, there is some doubt of the account.
Mike
Yup. Watched O'Rielly going off on Senator Chaffetz last night about how easy it was to get a "machine gun" at a gun show with no background check. Chaffetz tried (to no avail) to explain to him you can't just go out an buy a fully automatic weapon. In this case O'Rielly was pretty stupid. He sees an AK-47 and assumes it's fully automatic.
__________________
MKIII, 302 FMS Crate, GT40 Heads, Quick Fuel carb, TK0500 Mid-shift, 3-Link, 300 RWHP & Trq. Finally done after two years. I think I will call her Black Betty
"A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."
Last edited by Scalded Dog; 07-25-2012 at 06:32 PM..
Looks like he tried to be low-key about it, he arrived via ambulance so to avoid the press, there was no statement. Apparently the only way it's getting out is the kid in the picture in the article has spammed his Facebook account with that picture.
I was wondering if he had written in detail about what he was going to do. It's the same thing that happened with the gym shooter I was talking about who had written a class paper describing what he was about to do.
If only this package hadn't sat in a mail room for a week.
I was wondering if he had written in detail about what he was going to do. It's the same thing that happened with the gym shooter I was talking about who had written a class paper describing what he was about to do.
If only this package hadn't sat in a mail room for a week.
Makes me wonder if he was just looking for attention and was WANTING someone to stop him. If the reported post date of the 12th is true, then it should have gotten to the teacher long before the event actually took place. Also the story of the teacher doesn't really add up unless he was somehow tipped off that he was being sent a package by the shooter. I heard the teacher called the cops about an unrelated package that he "believed" was from the shooter. It was only after investigators decided to look in the schools mail room that the actual package from the shooter was found.
Something doesn't smell right there. I'm thinking the teacher knew more than was reported. He either had his suspicions from talking with the shooter previously, or the shooter or someone else told the teacher that there was a package coming to him...IMHO.
Yup. Watched O'Rielly going off on Senator Chaffetz last night about how easy it was to get a "machine gun" at a gun show with no background check. Chaffetz tried (to no avail) to explain to him you can't just go out an buy a fully automatic weapon. In this case O'Rielly was pretty stupid. He sees an AK-47 and assumes it's fully automatic.
O'Rielly is a statist. He wants government solutions for every problem. A number of people, both inside and outside Fox have tried to explain to him how commodity markets work, for example, to no avail.
Mike
__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Frequently the justification for doing nothing is the exaggeration of lesser evils.
I saw the O'Reilly interview.. O'Reilly was an idiot... On top of everything else.. Who cares if a person buys 60,000 rounds of ammo. It's not like the shooter needed 60,000 rounds for the theater shooting. Wonder if he has any idea how heavy 60,000 rounds of ammo really is.. O'Reilly kept saying, "HE BOUGHT SIIIIIIXXXXXtyyyy THOOOOOOSANNNNNDDD ROUNNNNDDDDDDSS OFFFFFF AMMMMMUUUUUUNNNNITION!"
BTW, I thought he only bought 6000 rounds.. ??? Was it 60K?
Every news story I have read is saying 6000 rounds..
wow. I am sooooo glad I don't have cable. This automotive habit keeps me in the garage and unaware of so many talking heads. My little world is a much happier place because of it.
He is a skinny kid. All it would have taken is one person tackling him from behind or coming up from behind and putting one bullet into the back of his head. Problem solved. I certainly don't know how he moved around the theater, but I bet he didn't keep everybody in front of him.
I had this thought when I read one account of a guy that played dead and the shooter actually stood above him and continued his shooting while brushing against this guy on the ground......would you play dead or grab hold of the freak's legs and take him down? Be honest....what would you do? I'm 5'11" and just under 200 lb and very fit....I like to think I would tangle him up in that situation....but would I? Or would you picture him just pointing the gun down? I can say with some certainty if I found myself behind him I would take his head off.
__________________
Chuck
FFR #4758-IRS-Pin Drive widths - 351W - 3.55's - Tremec 3550 - 15" PSE GT-40, 295's ----- SOLD
wow. I am sooooo glad I don't have cable. This automotive habit keeps me in the garage and unaware of so many talking heads. My little world is a much happier place because of it.
Lucky you. You are a full ten years behind on internet memes, for example
Mike
__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Frequently the justification for doing nothing is the exaggeration of lesser evils.
I had this thought when I read one account of a guy that played dead and the shooter actually stood above him and continued his shooting while brushing against this guy on the ground......would you play dead or grab hold of the freak's legs and take him down? Be honest....what would you do? I'm 5'11" and just under 200 lb and very fit....I like to think I would tangle him up in that situation....but would I? Or would you picture him just pointing the gun down? I can say with some certainty if I found myself behind him I would take his head off.
It's all about Survival Mindset.. I know for a fact that if the opportunity presented itself I would NOT just lay there, play dead and hope that he didn't kill me.
Maybe it's a false expectation, but I would like to think that if someone tackled him there would be others there within seconds to assist in gaining control of him, similar to some of the recent incidents that have taken place on airlines.
I was listening to a song yesterday, 'The Impression That I Get' by the Mighty Mighty Bosstones and thought of the shooting.
'I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested, I like to think that if I was I would pass. Look at the tested and think there but for the grace go, I might be a coward, I'm afraid of what I might find out'
I would like to think if I had been there and was in that position laying there and he was brushing up against me I would try to take him down, but can't fault someone who didn't as I don't really know what it was like to be in his shoes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwood
I had this thought when I read one account of a guy that played dead and the shooter actually stood above him and continued his shooting while brushing against this guy on the ground......would you play dead or grab hold of the freak's legs and take him down? Be honest....what would you do? I'm 5'11" and just under 200 lb and very fit....I like to think I would tangle him up in that situation....but would I? Or would you picture him just pointing the gun down? I can say with some certainty if I found myself behind him I would take his head off.
__________________
MKIII Roadster #5835; IRS, Team III Wheels, Kuhmo XS Tires
Anderson Performance 408 Engine; Levy T5 Transmission
Engine Installed July 4th, First start July 5th 2009
Metal Morphous paint completed on November 20th
On the Road July 2011
On going to another movie, it's funny with little kids the wife and I hardly ever get out, but Friday night my in-laws were watching the kids and we went to see 'Ted'. There were two police cars at the theater we were at, and a pretty good turn out for batman. I wasn't unhappy about the fact that we were in the very last theater as far from batman as you could be though.
_Scott
__________________
MKIII Roadster #5835; IRS, Team III Wheels, Kuhmo XS Tires
Anderson Performance 408 Engine; Levy T5 Transmission
Engine Installed July 4th, First start July 5th 2009
Metal Morphous paint completed on November 20th
On the Road July 2011
This is a really informative article on the "Colorado Compromise" (the 5 "pro gun" and 3 "anti gun" measures put in place after Columbine) that has ~2/3 super-majority support and why gun laws in that state are likely to not change in response to these murders: Colorado Consensus on Gun Laws - National Review Online
Mike
__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Frequently the justification for doing nothing is the exaggeration of lesser evils.
I find it entertaining that there is an uproar over an assault style weapon and the references that these weapons should be in the hands of troops, not civilians.
Because a Mini-14 wouldn't cause the same carnage right? Both are single shot and there are high capacity magazines. But because one of these looks like the carbine the military uses (M-16/M-4), It must be an assault weapon.
I took a paintball gun to school for a photography class. I wanted to capture the paint ball coming out of the barrel. This was the same week that the Sacramento School shooting happened where an AK-47 was used.
So the teacher called the front office telling them there was a student with a AK47 in his class.
That day taught me that when people fear something, it becomes every object associated with that fear.
So when a politician gets up and starts speaking about banning assault weapons.....then says that AK-47's should only be used by troops (regular American forces do not use the AK47)....I have to wonder, does that politician know the difference between an AK-47, an M4 and an AR-15 or a paintball gun for that matter.
He is a skinny kid. All it would have taken is one person tackling him from behind or coming up from behind and putting one bullet into the back of his head. Problem solved. I certainly don't know how he moved around the theater, but I bet he didn't keep everybody in front of him.
Gee, I sit here trying to think up a good response to your post all this is all I can come up with........
I'm a 48yo Combat Veteran and I have discharged my weapon during 26 different operations and to be totally honest with everyone, I could not tell you what I would have done of I was in the theater when the shooting took place.
As a civilian my primary concern would be my safety and if they were there, my family's safety.
I'm armed 99.99% of the time when I'm not at work so if I was at the theater I would have been armed with at lest a 9mm w/ 15 rounds of ammo but moe Han likely I would have been armed with either a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP W/ 12 or 13rds of ammo so being able to "engage" the BG would not be the problem.
Believe it or not it would take a lot of testicular fortitude to get up out of you seat and engage and active shooter in a dark, crowded theater with people running and screaming.
Yep I can see it now........ There's Joe, diving over a row of seats, landing in the isle with his pistol spraying lead everywhere as he did a barrel roll kinda like John McClain in "Die Hard"!
But, when I was younger I would without a doubt pulled out my pistol and have went to work on the BG. But I did a lot of dumbass things back then too
Paul
__________________
FFR 4859GT 414W, Tremec TKO 5spd. IRS w/3.55 and Torsen diff. 13" dual-piston front & 12" rear disc brakes. 03 Cobra wheels, 275/40 & 315/35 tires. Possibly the only person in the world that is currently building a Spyder GT.
"A veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve - is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The 'United States of America', for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'"
My wife asked me the same thing and I also said I really dont know, too difficult to even imagine...and also too many years ago that I was in direct fire situation.
I have read that some boys did protect their girlfriends by getting in front of them, I do hope we get to hear who these guys were and hopefully none of them were amongst the dead.
Watching CNN video this afternoon of the police calls and the 24 minutes it took EMR to get into the theatre , because of the chaos outside and Fire Commander not believing there were that many down.... Police even started to move patients to Hospital in police cars on their own because of the lack of Ambulances on the scene.
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