2 long range rifles to cover all N. American game???

[Michael Stora]

Excluding big bore guns for "brush busting" and close work on bear, if you could only have two scoped long-range rifles for all North-American game from varmints and small predators through moose and bear, what would be a good choice taking into account modern advances in bullet design?

I'm also excluding "contingency" rifles and automatic rifles from the list.

I'm thinking:
1.) .25-06: This is sufficient for any deer in the world. With Barnes X or Nosler Partitions this extends to Wapiti (including American "Elk") and any pig. My current 26" barrel .257 Roberts Ackley Improved fits the bill and is more flexible on the varmint side but I'd just buy a .25-06 if I did not already have the wildcat.

2.) .338 Remington Ultra Mag. 4500 ft-lbs should lay out any bear or true Elk (like Moose) with oomph to spare.

Opinions are like arse-holes: everyone has one. Please show your arse

Mike

[BS]

Can't argue with the 25-06 for deer sized game and down. I've owned two and am about to get another one soon. However, one caveat I've found is that most 25-06's aren't really great varmint rifles for one reason- the long throat and twist in most 25-06 rifles doesn't work well for accuracy for lighter, shorter bullets more suitable for varmint hunting. If you are content with hunting varmints with the longer game bullets- or designating your 25-06 for varmints and having it throated for a specific varmint bullet-say a Nosler 87 grain ballistic tip, you should have a great rifle.

On the 338 Ultra Mag I would have to disagree. I shoot 300 Mags, 338 mags, and 300 weatherby's for Elk, bear, Moose and they work fantastically. I've even hunted Africa with my 338's and they worked tremendously on every game animal I shot.
Every single person I've talked to who owned a 338 Ultra Mag has complained of the excessive recoil and stopped using them as their go-to hunting rifles.

There is nothing you can't kill with a 338 Win mag and a good rangefinder and knowing how to shoot well at long ranges that the .338 Ultra Mag can/will do better, IMHO. And I've shot Elk at well over 600 yards and other game regularly at over 300 yards with mine.

However, I would never disagree with buying another rifle for the collection.

Bob

[Tim Burns]

Mike, the 25-06 is a great deer size game round with modern bullets and about perfect for pronghorn due to its ability to reach out to 350+ yds with 100g bullets. That is an attribute the 30-06 lacks, and the 270 is limited in variety of bullet weights it can only achieve 350+ yrds with 130g bullets. For the big stuff the 338 ultramag is overkill for North America. A 338 Win Mag will do the rest without having to take out a loan for ammo and is much more readily available in several bullet weights. The 180 - 210g will knock the crap out of a big elk or caribou, the 225g for moose and 250g to 300g Accubond, Trophy Bonded, or Swift A-Frame is the best medicine for Coastal Browns or Grizz. The best thing about both these cartridges is you can get a huge variety of different loads in most sporting goods stores. And if you reload then the combinations are infinite. If you really think the 338 Winmag isnt enough then the only other Big caliber that I would consider is the .375 H&H. again due to ammo availability. If you get to BF Alaska and your ammo gets lost in transit you can get both 375 & 338WM most any where I dont think that would be the case with the 338UMag

BS- My 25-06 has a 1-10 twist rate and will shoot 1/2" groups with the 75g Hornady V-Max over 57.9g of H4350. you should see what that does to a coyote, it aint pretty

[BS]

Tim,
Great performance from the 25-06! I've owned mostly Rem. 700's in my varmint and deer rifles and most 25's are twisted 1-12 and don't handle the shorter bullets well. I shoot mostly 100/120 grain partitions and Hornadies.
I've not really worried about it too much since I have several dedicated varmint rifles in the safe that are much more pleasant to shoot for a long day of shooting- .22-250, 223, 223 AI.....

Forgot to mention the .375 H&H. You are right on with power and availability of ammo. I've owned 3 of them, all in Pre 64 Model 70's and they all shot well under and inch all day long (well, as long as I could handle the recoil). Nothing on the planet you can't kill with a .375 H&H and is the legal minimum for dangerous game in most African countries.

One day I'll post a great story about a 'yote I shot with my 338 WM.....

Bob

[tirod]

A hunting rifle capable of shooting game animals isn't restricted to a type of action - any will do, and semi automatic actions have been around nearly 100 years. So who gets to decide whether it's a "contingency" rifle? MOST rifles carried by our forefathers were expressly made to handle contingencies, and it was exactly why they were desired and possessed.

As far as game is concerned, it's like fish - they only deal with the hook, they could care less what name is engraved on the reel or rod. The Brand is put their to impress the owner and his friends. It doesn't impress the game at all. The bait does - it doesn't have a brand name all over it, and the fish can't even tell what kind of reel is winding it in.

My specific choice for a small caliber game rifle was one that could support the caliber and be extremely durable for a long period of time with little maintenance. So I built a 6.8 SPC AR15. It's sufficient for deer sized game, will handle nearly everything smaller, and do it well, with 1 MOA accuracy out to 500m. It will do it iron sight or scoped, and that can be either a red dot or powered. It can do it with a hunting season legal ten round magazine, or a 30 for prairie dogs, or a 50 because I want one.

Like the Shelby Cobra, the AR15 has trounced lesser rifles that were considered more sophisticated or better designed. It holds most the field in National Match competitions, where the M1 and M14 are relegated to also ran. It's been in service since BEFORE the Shelby Cobra, and shares a similar history of coming from an upstart source and beating the competition.

I'm sure racers don't like being told what they can and can't use on the track, and folks don't take it kindly that cutting wood needs to stay traditional and they have to use an axe. Please don't suggest that "contingency" rifles are somehow less than a proper tool - they aren't. It's those who can't and won't accept them because of blatant bias and denial that create the problem, just like those who outlawed the Hemi, Chapparal, wings, turbines, and ground affects. Can't have them around, it upsets the status quo.

[Michael Stora]

Good grief tirod! Read between the lines much? No problem going outside the bounds of my question but how can you possibly take offence?

So what game and what range do you use this intermediate power cartridge? How much does your rifle weigh? What's your second rifle for the rest of North American game?

Mike

[Mark Reid]

Originally Posted by tirod

A hunting rifle capable of shooting game animals isn't restricted to a type of action - any will do, and semi automatic actions have been around nearly 100 years. So who gets to decide whether it's a "contingency" rifle? MOST rifles carried by our forefathers were expressly made to handle contingencies, and it was exactly why they were desired and possessed.

As far as game is concerned, it's like fish - they only deal with the hook, they could care less what name is engraved on the reel or rod. The Brand is put their to impress the owner and his friends. It doesn't impress the game at all. The bait does - it doesn't have a brand name all over it, and the fish can't even tell what kind of reel is winding it in.

My specific choice for a small caliber game rifle was one that could support the caliber and be extremely durable for a long period of time with little maintenance. So I built a 6.8 SPC AR15. It's sufficient for deer sized game, will handle nearly everything smaller, and do it well, with 1 MOA accuracy out to 500m. It will do it iron sight or scoped, and that can be either a red dot or powered. It can do it with a hunting season legal ten round magazine, or a 30 for prairie dogs, or a 50 because I want one.

Like the Shelby Cobra, the AR15 has trounced lesser rifles that were considered more sophisticated or better designed. It holds most the field in National Match competitions, where the M1 and M14 are relegated to also ran. It's been in service since BEFORE the Shelby Cobra, and shares a similar history of coming from an upstart source and beating the competition.

I'm sure racers don't like being told what they can and can't use on the track, and folks don't take it kindly that cutting wood needs to stay traditional and they have to use an axe. Please don't suggest that "contingency" rifles are somehow less than a proper tool - they aren't. It's those who can't and won't accept them because of blatant bias and denial that create the problem, just like those who outlawed the Hemi, Chapparal, wings, turbines, and ground affects. Can't have them around, it upsets the status quo.

Geez, are you sure your name isn't tirade?

[Michael Stora]

I own about 26 long guns (some are project guns not fully assempled or complete). As much as I love wood, some of them are black and some of them go bang bang bang although most go bang clunk bang. I have 4 guns chambered for .308 or .223 and am in the market for another .308.

For me a contingency gun is a reliable gun in .308 or .223 (because you are much more likely to be able to buy, beg, barter, or steal them) that is servicable for both defense and putting meat on the table. If it has optics, they should be rugged and there should be backup sights. It should also be reliable clean or dirty and in all temperatures. It should not require different cleaning and lubrication in different weather. For me, this says gas piston. Large quantities of ammo should be on hand, preferably at more than one address and at least some of it "shovel ready".

I prefer to hunt with bolt guns for many reason including weight, greater barrel length for a given overall length, low sight elivation, short trigger pull, sleak profile that fits well on gun racks and dooes not snag rifle sheaths. They are easier to reload accurately and brass life is much longer with minimal resising and low rim damage. I could go on. And yes, esthetics play a part for me as well.

I have a custom scout rifle in .30-06 with a throat that loves 180 and 220 grainers. that I've done a lot of hunting in the timber of Florida. I have an action I was going to build a .35 Whelen on (probably now a .370 Sako). Both have backup iron sights. I have a Beckman Arms .45-70 custom guide gun based on the Marlin 1895. I experiance no discomfort with near magnum-level loads. I have Whitworth Express Rifle in .458 Win Mag with express sights that I also find comfortable (except on the bench). These 4 are my short to med range hunting guns. All but the guide gun are set up for appropriate QD optics but have good iron sights.

For long-range hunting I started out with two stainless Ruger M77s one in 7mm Rem Mag and one in .338 Win mag. Both have custom triggers. Neither is comfortable to shoot or very accurate due to the narrow lightweight stocks that are too flexible. I have a nice laminated stock for the .338 that I have not finished but to be honest I do not enjoy reloading the belted magnums and will probably sell them. Part of me says finish the stock work and bedding on the .338 and see if it accurate enough to be long-range hunter #2. I can always just neck size them and headspace my reloads on the shoulder.

So that leaves a niche for 2 long range bolt guns, neither of which need backup sights.
A combination gun that does not brake the bank would also be nice. I was flushing turkey and birds constantly when hunting in Central Florida timber with a .30-06 in hand! Very frustrating.

Mike

[BS]

Mike,
I wouldn't be afraid or uncomfortable to hunt most of the game I hunt (besides varmints) with nothing but my 338 WM as my only weapon. I have two at the moment, a Pre 64 model 70 that was rebarreled and bolt refaced from an original 30-06 and I have a Classic Stainless/synthetic .338WM for hunting in the winter when my rifles seem to always be wet, icy, etc... so I don't have to sweat the rust and other problems with my blued rifle.
Both of them shoot well under an inch. In fact, if I do my part they both will shoot right at 1/2" all day long with my handloads.

Don't discount the value of a well designed stock for recoil reduction and accuracy. If the stock is designed properly , bedded properly, and you have a decent recoil pad the .338's really aren't all that uncomfortable to shoot IMHO. The boat paddle stocks on the Rugers are probably the worst for accuracy and comfort.

Off to work, have to check this thread later.

Bob

[yankabilly]

Originally Posted by Michael Stora

I'm also excluding "contingency" rifles and automatic rifles from the list.

Darn Mike, Almost every rilfe in my safe would be considered "contingency" and almost all are semi-auto. But if I had to keep ONLY TWO and still put meat on the table.

1) Ruger mini 14 model Ac556 with ranch rifle stocks in .223
Truglow 3-9x44 ir. plus I'd keep my Barska 30mm electro with side mount red laser from my 10/22

2) EDM model 05 with match receiver and barrel .50
Barska 4-16x50 (moa 1 1/2 @ 1000 yards )

[SloW8]

Ruger 10/22 in .22 long rifle and a Barret in .50 BMG.

[Tim Burns]

BS I'm a bit surprised your 25-06 wont handle light bullets with a 1 in 12 twist. I'm also surprised you can stabilize 120g'ers with 1 in 12.

Normally bullets that are at the upper weight limit of a caliber require faster twist rates to stabilize. Part of this is due to the lower velocities we see with heavy bullets so we have to increase the twist to get the same rotational velocity but also they are longer than "standard" weight bullets, requiring more rotation to stabilize it as well. A lack of stabilization will show as "key holing"


As a side note, my 25 is a custom Mauser 98 that my father built himself in 1967. It has a 2-8 Balvar and still shoots like crazy. My dad shot an 8-point whitetail near Sundance WY at 575 yds with it in 1968.

My 338 is a Model 70 Classic with a BOSS. I have a 3-9 Nichols scope. My most accurate load is a 200g Ballistic tip (discontinued) w/ 73g H4350. Shoots 3/4" groups or better depending on how much coffee I drink that morning

[SP3]

my bother recently bought one of these:

Browning Firearm, BLR Lightweight Stainless with Pistol Grip, Item 034018118, UPC 023614066620

not for hunting (not one), just for longer range, higher power plinking with something different. no, not a really helpful post.

[Michael Stora]

Originally Posted by SP3

my bother recently bought one of these:

Browning Firearm, BLR Lightweight Stainless with Pistol Grip, Item 034018118, UPC 023614066620

not for hunting (not one), just for longer range, higher power plinking with something different. no, not a really helpful post.

Sweet little gun. Would be great for a kid of lady too. Plus you can't beat high quality Serbian .308 at less than $0.50/round.

Mike

[Michael Stora]

Longer (heavier) bullets need more spin. 1:10 should be sufficient for 120 grain conventional bullets but all copper 120 gainers need a 1:9 twist because they are so darn long. You can get away with 100 grain with 1:12 but only at really high velocities.

Mike

[BS]

You guys may be right on the twist of the 25. I sold the rifle quite a while ago and can't remember the twist on that particular rifle. I'm sure I'm mistaking it for my Remington 22-250's which I'm sure are 1-12 from the factory in the early models. The later Remington 22-250's are twisted 1-10 for the most part and I believe the newer 25's are offered in 1-9.
I know mine loved the 100 and 120 grain ballistic tips and Nosler partitions. Wouldn't shoot the varmint weight bullets worth a darn, mostly because of the long throat, I believe. To be honest, I believe I shot the barrel out of it and instead of rebarreling it, I had a lust for something new and moved it down the road.
The 25-284 I replaced it with has never really done anything to make me feel it was a great trade off so it will go down the road one of these days- Hart barrel and all.

Another thing I find as I get older (much as I hate to admit it) is that some of these rifles are just plain too heavy to carry around all day climbing mountains and walking miles. I've gone to lighter rifles like my FN Mauser 270 mountain rifle for deer and I've still been able to get as much game, see more country, and not be worn out at the end of a long day of hunting. That extra 3-4 lbs of rifle you carry all day really does make a difference now that I'm almost 60 years old.

Now, to make this thread really interesting, what do you guys prefer in scopes?

My two favorites at the moment (for big game) are Leupold 3-9 Vari X II (early model) and a Bausch and Lomb 4200 Elite 2.5 x 10. Both excellent scopes, tough, well built, and absolutely excellent glass. I've got several of each and I don't baby my equipment and they both work as advertised every day in the field and at the range.

My favorite Varmint scope is a Bausch & Lomb 4200 Elite 6 x 24 . Best glass in a long scope I've ever owned and even beats out my Leupold 6.5 x 20 by a bit.

Bob

[Michael Stora]

I have 4 scopes that cover me pretty well and 3 I never use.

1. Original model Burris Scout Scope fixed 2.75x intermediate eye relief (mounts over barrel). This is currently mounted on my McMillan M3 (M1A Scout Squad) with Warne QD Mounts (the new wide model).
2. Burris "Mini" Scope 2-7x. This is a Magnum Scope with 3-4" eye relief so you don't get scoped biut still mounts in the conventional location. Currently mounted on .458 Win Mag Whitworth Express Rifle with Warne QD mounts (the old narrow model).
3. The same old-model Leupold Vari X II 3-9x40 you have. Currently not mounted on anything. It is usually on my .338 Win Mag.
4. I have the Swift version of the same scope. Not quire at bright and it was destroyed by 7mm Rem Mag recoil but Swift honored the lifetime warranty and replaced it. I generally don't use it unless I am outfitting a friend or using it on my in-line black powder rifle.
5. BSA Platinum 6-24x44. I love everything about this scope except the fact that the black finish is so thin that it mars very easily, even flying brass from someone at the same range will dent/mar it. It is covered with scratches. Currently mounted on my .25 Ackley with Millet windage-adjustable Weaver mounts. It is a huge scope even without a sunshade installed.
6. A Weaver Woodsman rimfire scope (came on a rifle and I've taken it off and never used it).
7. Some cheap compact 4x Chinese Scope I had on an SKS (I no longer own). Not very clear or bright and I don't use it. I'm not sure where it is right now (possibly mounted on a black powder gun).

The Burris and Leupold scopes are high quality but different kinds of quality. The Leupold is light for its size and the Burris scopes are heavy for their size-very ruggedly built. They have a great reputation for standing up to recoil. My Burris Mini (with rings) weighs 19 oz!

One of these days I will be buying a reflex sight.

Mike

[ETriggs]

.308 for smaller game and 300 Win Mag for the rest. I use 150 grain in the .308 with 47 grains of H335. I use either 180 grain soft point or 220 grain hollow point match king and 75 grains of IMR 7828. I would feel comfortable having those two cartridges with me anywhere on the planet. Only thing I would not hunt with those would be elephant. I would use an 81mm mortar.

What I use chambered in those are an AR-10 and CETME. Both use the same magazine and have a 5 round mag to be hunting compliant. My 300 WM is a Savage 110 that has been timed and tuned by Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter Supply with a 26" bull stainless Douglas barrel. Cloverleafs them at 200 yards.

[Venom_Injected]

30-06 and a Remington 870 express 12 ga....

2 guns to go across the US... those are the 2 i want.... ( I know its not a rifle but shooting game period... I'll take the 12g. for everything below large game (birds, small game etc)

[crash]

Funny this has come up as I was looking for a nice "do it all" long gun myself recently. I decided if I was really in a survival situation it would be a **********************. That ONE GUN will pretty much cover EVERYTHING I would want to kill.

EDIT- I was gonna tell you guys, but I think I may be in the market again, and this is a rare gun. Some models costing thousands of $$, so I really don't need the competition on the auction sites!

[Mike D]

I love my Rem 721-based .308 Scout and was planning on a similar build (but on a long action) in .35 Whelen for Elk. Just no time for hunting in the last 10 years or so I never built it, but still a great choice.

[Mike_R]

For me I think I would take my 243W for the smaller game, and 300 win mag for the larger animals.

[CrawleysCobra]

Originally Posted by Mike_R

For me I think I would take my 243W for the smaller game, and 300 win mag for the larger animals.

Same here for me...

[BigLeo69]

simple all around and easy and cheap to buy "30 odd six." deer

varmit rifle 22 hornet

moose and elk 300mag

bear a shot-gun slug

[Michael Stora]

Thanks for all the feedback. I agree that the .338 RUM is probably severe overkill for North America. I am now looking at the .338 RCM which equals or slightly exceeds .338 Win Mag with a short action.

Mike

[bhoov128]

Maybe not very helpful at all, and against the rules as it's a contingency rifle, but the nicest I've ever shot is my dad's M1A. Its got a composite stock which is a bit lighter than the wood, a wide recoil pad, and a Krieger barrel. Just last week I put four bullets in a 2" group at 300 yds, open sights. It is heavy though. I'd take that on any deer / medium sized game hunt (if he'd let me take his target / CMP rifle )

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned 7mm remington mag for the "reach out and touch someone" duties. Is that just due to the limited ammunition varieties available?