I read this and my thought was why would you place this much stress on the trim tab. Why wouldn't you have the plane set to be neutral with no trim at 450MPH or so. It would be a beast to fly at low speeds but if you are racing you are an excellent pilot and can deal with it. And you have more time.
Have you ever tried to land an airplane that has no lift from it's wings?
So here's the issue. As I said before, the idea is to make the wing as small of an actual wing as possible because, as someone else stated, with increased speed, you get increased lift which neccessarily means increased drag. Drag slows the plane down and these are built for all out speed.
Translation- Build the wing so that it provides the least amount of lift needed to keep the plane in the air under optimum conditions. In this case, flat out racing. One more issue though. Taking off and landing. Thus the reason that commercial airliner wings have very shallow wings. It reduces drag and increases not only speed but efficiency. Difference is that on an airliner they also have FLAPS that are substantial. These create the amount of lift required at low speeds to allow reasonable and safe take off and landing speeds. Without them, planes would need HUGELY long run ways and tons of speed to get off the ground and land.
Did this racer have flaps even? I don't know, but I would guess not. For weight reasons alone. Anyway, so let's assume the plane has no flaps, it now becomes a balancing act as to how much or how little static wing is built into the plane in order to balance between speed ability at the top end and the ability to take off and land at reasonable speeds. Usually the take off and landing side sacrifices for the speed part of the equation...but it can't be sacrificed entirely, so this is where the trim tabs come in.
The plane has to have enough lift created by the wings to get it off the ground in a given length of runway, but this is reduced to its minimum so that speed can be maximized. Again, these planes have so much power that once airborne they could literally have virtually NO LIFT from the wings produced, point the nose up slightly, and the shear thrust from the prop would keep it in the air. Like I said though, there must be some lift to get them off the ground. So this lift tends to pitch the aircraft nose up. Especially if the CG is moved back behind the wings. To compensate, the trim tabs are used to keep the elevator down a bit so that the nose does not pitch up too much in "level" flight.
Lose the trim tab, and yes I can see the nose pitching up, however, it is my opinion that something else happened previous to the trim tab coming off. We shall see tomorrow.
I was taught when flying low you trim nose up. If anything happens and you let go of controls , the nose rises and the plane slows, but of course a C182 is only going at 200mph, with a tail wind.
From what I have read the P51 -has a natural tendency to want to nose up the faster you fly. So it requires trim to keep the nose down. Thus a lot of stress on trim tab. I am sure they rig these racers pretty neutral too, but you still want the natural nose light scenario if something goes wrong.
I was taught when flying low you trim nose up. If anything happens and you let go of controls , the nose rises and the plane slows, but of course a C182 is only going at 200mph, with a tail wind.
From what I have read the P51 -has a natural tendency to want to nose up the faster you fly. So it requires trim to keep the nose down. Thus a lot of stress on trim tab. I am sure they rig these racers pretty neutral too, but you still want the natural nose light scenario if something goes wrong.
Also, they may have shortened the tail and thus it requires more force to get the same result because of less leverage.
Are you saying that THIS plane had flaps, or that a regular P51 has flaps?
Yes I do see what looks like flaps in post 17, but I also see that it appears that the wing shape, while shorter than the original, appears to keep its original cross sectional shape, which would mean that as the speeds increase well beyond design characteristics, the amount of lift, stress, and therefore counter force from the trim tabs would be exponentially increased as well.
It won't work at a Holiday Inn, you have to stay at the HI Express.
FYI, Galloping Ghost had a stall speed of 120mph with the flaps down.
The airplane I fly most often stalls at 100 KTS clean and about 73 with full flaps. That seems slower at landing than the Pitts I owned that had no flaps and needed to be landed in a turn for visibility.
The AIRCRAFT I fly the most has NO stall speed.
We have a bunch of them too. 4 rows in one hanger and we don't have just one hanger full.
In the mid-2000s, Holiday Inn Express began producing humorous television commercials featuring "average Joes" performing extraordinary activities that only experts would know. The concept attributes these exaggerated abilities to the fact that they "stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night".
"I'm not a doctor but I stayed in a Holiday Inn express last night" etc., etc.
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I'm not informed enough to even know what I don't know regarding this subject.
I'm aware there is an ongoing debate regarding age limits for pilots. I see this guy was 74. I'm sure there'd have to be a lot of medical and physical tests a person would have to pass to retain a license to do this kind of flying - Correct??
__________________
Violet with Silver stripes. 5.0 Edelbrock Cam, Heads and Dual Quad setup. T5, 3.73 gears. PS Engineering Team III Wheels, BFGoodrich Radial TA\'s Delivered in 2004, On the road since 2007
In the mid-2000s, Holiday Inn Express began producing humorous television commercials featuring "average Joes" performing extraordinary activities that only experts would know. The concept attributes these exaggerated abilities to the fact that they "stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night".
"I'm not a doctor but I stayed in a Holiday Inn express last night" etc., etc.
______________
I'm not informed enough to even know what I don't know regarding this subject.
I'm aware there is an ongoing debate regarding age limits for pilots. I see this guy was 74. I'm sure there'd have to be a lot of medical and physical tests a person would have to pass to retain a license to do this kind of flying - Correct??
I know...I'm not that dumb...I got the reference that he wasn't an expert but he did stay in a holiday Inn Express......gosh.....
Besides...I live that motto everyday and remind my bosses of this fact daily and they laugh....
I know...I'm not that dumb...I got the reference that he wasn't an expert but he did stay in a holiday Inn Express......gosh.....
Besides...I live that motto everyday and remind my bosses of this fact daily and they laugh....
LOL, sorry
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Violet with Silver stripes. 5.0 Edelbrock Cam, Heads and Dual Quad setup. T5, 3.73 gears. PS Engineering Team III Wheels, BFGoodrich Radial TA\'s Delivered in 2004, On the road since 2007
Same here Cory. We just can't see each other smiling and laughing.
Sad thing here is with all the future lawsuits, will the day of the airshow be in jeopardy...
__________________
Violet with Silver stripes. 5.0 Edelbrock Cam, Heads and Dual Quad setup. T5, 3.73 gears. PS Engineering Team III Wheels, BFGoodrich Radial TA\'s Delivered in 2004, On the road since 2007
It won't work at a Holiday Inn, you have to stay at the HI Express.
FYI, Galloping Ghost had a stall speed of 120mph with the flaps down.
The airplane I fly most often stalls at 100 KTS clean and about 73 with full flaps. That seems slower at landing than the Pitts I owned that had no flaps and needed to be landed in a turn for visibility.
The AIRCRAFT I fly the most has NO stall speed.
We have a bunch of them too. 4 rows in one hanger and we don't have just one hanger full.
K I gotta ask. What do you do for a living (and please don't answer "fly a helicopter").
Flaps were stock P-51.
The wings were clipped.
The fuselage was not shortened.
The airplane I OWN and FLY stalls in the buffet (flaps up or down) at a AOA that I can't measure.
R
We instrument for AoA but still do 1G configuration stalls in test flight. People want to know 1G stall speeds for calculating REF speeds and performance planning. It's also required for training scenarios to correct Va for weights less than MGTOW. We just don't use AoA or lift reserve gauges as much as the airspeed for what I do.
Pretty common for the Pitts and Zlin we use, I fly an entry speed and then just feel the aircraft. You make a good point, AoA per configuration works every time regardless of airspeed. I fly a T-tail aircraft that has NO buffet for stall when power off, so even the buffet may not be present. We lost one of these to a deep stall accident about 10 years ago.
K I gotta ask. What do you do for a living (and please don't answer "fly a helicopter").
Civilian instructor and test pilot working for the US Army. We fly various airplanes and helicopters, as directed. Prior to that I did 24 years on active duty. Prior to that I flew for the family crop dusting / water bombing business. Prior to that A&P mechanic for the above.
Basically if they stop all flying, I won't be qualified to do anything else.
Same here Cory. We just can't see each other smiling and laughing.
Sad thing here is with all the future lawsuits, will the day of the airshow be in jeopardy...
I don't know. I wonder if as with any race you attend you either sign a liability waiver or the fact you have a ticket in hand does the same.
I wouldn't imagine that there was anything with this accident that was negligent. I know that when I attend a race or do something that involves risk, that I am willing to accept what happens. I would think that those affected by the accident will be covered by insurance but lawsuits......I'll be disappointed if anyone files a lawsuit against the airport, race promoters or Leewards estate.
Trust me, the law suits are coming. I need no Holiday Inn time on this one.
As a racer I have seen it more times than I care to have.
Latest incident was when a bunch of people went out to the particular spot where it is known for race vehicles to crash, camped out, stood RIGHT NEXT TO the course, and then filed suits when indeed a truck DID crash and IIRC 7 were killed.
Bureau Of Land Management, event coordinator, and driver are all facing law suits...BIG ONES!
I think if I was one of these people being sued, I would counter sue for criminal stupidity!..if there was such a thing.
Trust me, the law suits are coming. I need no Holiday Inn time on this one.
As a racer I have seen it more times than I care to have.
Latest incident was when a bunch of people went out to the particular spot where it is known for race vehicles to crash, camped out, stood RIGHT NEXT TO the course, and then filed suits when indeed a truck DID crash and IIRC 7 were killed.
Bureau Of Land Management, event coordinator, and driver are all facing law suits...BIG ONES!
I think if I was one of these people being sued, I would counter sue for criminal stupidity!..if there was such a thing.
Don't get me started on this one!!! Personal responsibility or lack thereof trumps any fault of a defendant.
Civilian instructor and test pilot working for the US Army. We fly various airplanes and helicopters, as directed. Prior to that I did 24 years on active duty. Prior to that I flew for the family crop dusting / water bombing business. Prior to that A&P mechanic for the above.
Basically if they stop all flying, I won't be qualified to do anything else.
Why would you bomb the water?
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Mike
\"HABU\" FFR 3817 Redfire w/ Silver Stripes Stock build w/ 3:73\'s/Mass=Flo/Dual Roll Bars/Street Performers(finished 28 Feb 2004)
Stall speed of a STD P51D is 100mph clean , 95 mph full flap, so the 120 mph quoted is not excessive for a super cleaned up airplane, and I think that is a clean stall speed, not flaps.
Galloping Ghost also had outboard gates on the ailerons as they were substantially shortened, together with the outboard wing.
Another video from the back side of the corse shows it on it's last fly by them and all appeared normal (trim tab in place, tail wheel up). At 58 secs you can hear the sound of the impact reach them.
Stall speed of a STD P51D is 100mph clean , 95 mph full flap, so the 120 mph quoted is not excessive for a super cleaned up airplane, and I think that is a clean stall speed, not flaps.
Galloping Ghost also had outboard gates on the ailerons as they were substantially shortened, together with the outboard wing.
I don't know. The manual calls for slowing to 115-120 on final for the P51D, 120-125 for the P51H. That validates modern procedures of 1.3Vso with 95mph as the stall speed.
The approach speed talked about for Galloping Ghost is 150-155 (pattern speed for the stock D) this supports a 120MPH Vso. That's really not that high when you consider most everyone uses KIAS today. That would give it a full flap stall of 104 KIAS, not really that bad.
The flying report on GG indicated it was a joy to fly.
I'm sad about the reason we're discussing P51s but it is one of my favorite aircraft. I've always preferred the Hawker Hurricane and it's very rare today compared to the Mustang. If you like learning about the Mustang, I found a great online manual. These old manuals are so cool compared to the crap we have today. I just finished assisting with an operator's manual update for a very common Army aircraft. The thing has more Warnings, Cautions, and Notes than text in the P51 manual linked below:
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