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Old 03-18-2017, 11:17 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Electrical question re: radiator fan relay with A/C

I have the Vintage Air A/C with a trinary switch. I need to run a blue wire from the trinary switch to the radiator fan relay according to VA schematic. I have an LS3 crate engine with custom GTM harness from SMC Performance. There are two radiator fans with two relays. VA tech support told me to run the blue trinary wire to one of the engine coolant temp sensor wires (he wasn't sure which one) to activate the fans if the A/C pressure gets too high. SMC Performance doesn't think this is correct since this signal from the trinary A/C switch will then be telling the ECU that the engine is running hot and therefore the fans need to be switched on and this could affect ignition timing. SMC suggests running a "ground wire" from the trinary switch to one of the wires in each of the fan relays to activate them that way. I don't have the electrical background to know what needs to be done here. Has anyone else had this scenario? Any help would be appreciated!

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Old 03-18-2017, 01:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The VA person is wrong. You would never run a wire from the trinary switch to an LS3 temp sensor. That's because modern temp sensors produce a varying VOLTAGE output that corresponds to a range of temps. The ECU sends out a 5V signal and the compares the returning voltage from the temps sensor to determine the coolant temperature. The lower the voltage, the higher the temperature. Some old-style temp sensors may be nothing but a grounding switch that is turned on when the engine reaches one specific temp. In that case, the VA suggestion is appropriate.

http://www.ls2.com/boggs/dtcs/DTC%20P0118.htm

The wire that runs from the trinary switch to the fan relay is a ground signal that engages the relay. The suggestion from SMC makes more sense. It's just what I mentioned in my earlier post, as one possible way to turn the fans on.

I would ask where these relays are located and whether you can trace the proper wire on the relays to connect with trinary switch. If you unplug one of the relays, look for the terminals marked 85 and 86. One wire will be positive and the other negative. It's common for 86 to be positive, but it's not guaranteed. If it is, you may find that it also connects to the wire routed to terminal 30, that will have +12V to it whenever the ignition switch is in the run position. The wire from terminal 87 should be the +12V wire to the fan. Terminal 85 would then be connected to a -12V (ground) and that's where the relay wire (blue) from the trinary switch should be connected.

Here's video that explains a standard 5-pole relay.

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Last edited by daveS53; 03-18-2017 at 07:23 PM..
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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A temp sensor provides a varying resistance to the ECM, grounding the signal through the trinary switch would probably tell the ECM that the sensor has failed.
As far as I can tell the trinary switch is designed to interface with an ECM and is not intended to directly drive a relay (although some builders have done it and it works, at least for awhile). I would connect a solid state relay (Del City has some) to the switch and drive the fan relays from the solid state relay.
More $$$ and wiring but more robust and in keeping with the design intentions of the trinary switch.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bobquincy View Post
A temp sensor provides a varying resistance to the ECM, grounding the signal through the trinary switch would probably tell the ECM that the sensor has failed.
As far as I can tell the trinary switch is designed to interface with an ECM and is not intended to directly drive a relay (although some builders have done it and it works, at least for awhile). I would connect a solid state relay (Del City has some) to the switch and drive the fan relays from the solid state relay.
More $$$ and wiring but more robust and in keeping with the design intentions of the trinary switch.
If you watch the VA video you will realize that the trinary switch that they sell is designed to work with an ordinary 5-pole automotive relay. You're overthinking this problem. Their systems are made to work with older cars that have no ECM.

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Old 03-18-2017, 03:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for the responses guys. I checked the relay for the two fans. The wiring is:
First relay:
30--Red
87--Red/Blk
85--Pink
86--Grn

Second relay:
Same as above with the only difference at pin 86, where there is a blue wire.

Can I assume that its the Grn and Blu wires that I need to tap into with the blue trinary switch wire? There is a mesh loom that the custom harness is encased in so I can't trace the wires.

The wires coming from the coolant temp sensor are yellow and tan, so neither of them is going to the fan relays. I assume that goes to the ECU and the ECU must send a signal to the relays.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Without the specifications we don't know what the switch is designed for. VA probably buys an off-the-shelf switch that is designed for a modern AC system.

24 years of designing electrical systems for construction equipment can make one tend to be cautious about these things.

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Originally Posted by daveS53 View Post
If you watch the VA video you will realize that the trinary switch that they sell is designed to work with an ordinary 5-pole automotive relay. You're overthinking this problem. Their systems are made to work with older cars that have no ECM.

Trinary switch tech video - YouTube
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I did a little more research at the LS1 tech website and did verify that the GM ECU puts out -12V or "ground" signals to engage the fan relays.

Connecting the blue wire from the VA trinary switch to the 86 terminals on the fan relays should turn both fans on, when the condenser pressure gets to 254 psi.

I would be curious to know if these relays are mounted in a fuse/relay panel. The fans must be fused somewhere.
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bobquincy View Post
Without the specifications we don't know what the switch is designed for. VA probably buys an off-the-shelf switch that is designed for a modern AC system.

24 years of designing electrical systems for construction equipment can make one tend to be cautious about these things.
All I can tell you is I have one and it works fine, operating a standard relay.

A modern AC system uses a pressure transducer with a 0-5V output that the ECU interprets.

http://www.ls2.com/boggs/dtcs/DTC%20P0530.htm

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by daveS53 View Post
I did a little more research at the LS1 tech website and did verify that the GM ECU puts out -12V or "ground" signals to engage the fan relays.

Connecting the blue wire from the VA trinary switch to the 86 terminals on the fan relays should turn both fans on, when the condenser pressure gets to 254 psi.

I would be curious to know if these relays are mounted in a fuse/relay panel. The fans must be fused somewhere.
Thanks Dave, that's very helpful. Both relay switches are separate from the fuse box and have the wires going to each relay in a loom. There is a pink wire that goes to each relay so that may be what links the two . I don't see a fuse associated with the relays.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks Dave, that's very helpful. Both relay switches are separate from the fuse box and have the wires going to each relay in a loom. There is a pink wire that goes to each relay so that may be what links the two . I don't see a fuse associated with the relays.
It's the red wires to the #30 terminals that should be fused. The relays just transfer the +12 volts to the #87, then the red/black should go to the fans.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks for the responses guys. I checked the relay for the two fans. The wiring is:
First relay:
30--Red
87--Red/Blk
85--Pink
86--Grn

Second relay:
Same as above with the only difference at pin 86, where there is a blue wire.

Can I assume that its the Grn and Blu wires that I need to tap into with the blue trinary switch wire? There is a mesh loom that the custom harness is encased in so I can't trace the wires.

The wires coming from the coolant temp sensor are yellow and tan, so neither of them is going to the fan relays. I assume that goes to the ECU and the ECU must send a signal to the relays.
GM generally uses pink for ign+....so that make sense that they are supplying ignition power to pin 85 on both relays. Here is the problem....if you hook the VA switch to BOTH of those relays at pin 86 to ground them, the ECU will no longer be able to control the fans independently. Whenever it switches one relay on, the other will automatically come on since you just linked the two relays together with the blue VA switch wire.

If the ECU controls both fans independently, then in that case, you'll either give up that functionality.....or you'll have to use the blue VA trinary switch wires to trigger two separate relays that supply power to the two separate fans......in other words, set up an entirely separate control circuit to power the fans independently of the ECU and the ECU-controlled fan relays.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Shane,
Would that be a significant issue if independent fan function was lost? It seems you would want them both to go on if cooling is needed.

Thanks,
Keith
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:31 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Good info from Shane. I was afraid that was the case - two fans controlled independently. That really complicates things.

That makes me think that the folks at SMC really don't understand the product that they are selling. They should have known that connecting a wire from the trinary switch to both fan relays would make both fans run at the same time. You may need to find out who really makes the wiring harness and contact them for better info on making the harness AC compatible. There are also issues with controls to shut the compressor off at WOT or other high rpm conditions. I have none of that with my crate engine control from GM, so I just have to turn the A/C off if I want to mash the throttle.

There's also an issue with the type of compressor you're using. A VA system would use a Sanden style compressor with fixed displacement, but a modern GM system uses a variable displacement compressor that is not compatible with the expansion valve in the the VA system. Mixing the two is apparently not wise.

Secret to running LS1 compressor in expansion valve'd car?? - LS1TECH

How to wire AC Pressure Sensor without ECM control?

Vintage air non-pcm hook up
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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GM generally uses pink for ign+....so that make sense that they are supplying ignition power to pin 85 on both relays. Here is the problem....if you hook the VA switch to BOTH of those relays at pin 86 to ground them, the ECU will no longer be able to control the fans independently. Whenever it switches one relay on, the other will automatically come on since you just linked the two relays together with the blue VA switch wire.

If the ECU controls both fans independently, then in that case, you'll either give up that functionality.....or you'll have to use the blue VA trinary switch wires to trigger two separate relays that supply power to the two separate fans......in other words, set up an entirely separate control circuit to power the fans independently of the ECU and the ECU-controlled fan relays.
Shane,
Could I use one independent relay near the fans to control both fans or would I need two separate relays?
Keith
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:47 AM   #15 (permalink)
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kEITH,

I have a basic diagram on how I hooked up the VA system with an LS7 and stand alone harness. It might help give you a few ideas but may not be specific for your issue. The fans have there own set of relays run from the ECU. There are some basic notes in terms of the temp sensor 30118 wire(s) and I tried to color code to the extent I could. The fans work fine but I have yet to test the AC. I spent alot of time going over the wiring and I might need a tweak or two but it's pretty close. I added a third relay to take the signal from the Trinary and to power up the two fan relays. As I said...a few ideas to look at that may get you a little further.

The page is at: DOCUMENTS AND SCHEMATICS

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Old 03-21-2017, 01:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Shane,
Could I use one independent relay near the fans to control both fans or would I need two separate relays?
Keith
If you want both fans to come on with the VA trinary switch, then you would need 2 separate relays....one for each fan. If you just used one relay to power both fans, then you have to link them together.....which would do the same thing as linking the grounds together back at the fan relays that the ECU controls....the ECU would no longer be able to control the fans independently.
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Old Yesterday, 02:18 AM   #17 (permalink)
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In the diagram I use two relays to control the fans. They are tripped by the ECU. I use a third relay which is powered by the Trinary at 254 psi. When the third relay activates it supplies power to the ECU wire which has a diode to prevent power in reverse to the ECU. The fans react as if the ECU is supplying the signal when actually the Trinary is. That's the idea anyway. Similar to what Shane is saying in terms of relays. My concern was obviously getting the Trinary to have priority at high pressure and getting a signal to both fan relays simultaneously. Feed to the relay from the Trinary goes to relay terminal 86 to ground (85) supplying power tapped from 12v at terminal 30 and sending out via 87 (green). That green wire goes back to the ECU wire feeding the fan relays. For a reason I forgot but will revisit later is my reasoning for tapping the temp sensor wire (30118) into the same circuit. From what it appears (in general) the ECU wire can receive any 12v switched input to activate the fans. Since that wire is switched in the fuse box, if it's not on, I don't think back feed is an issue anyway. I simply turn it on via another switch whether the Trinary or something else attempting to get the fans on.
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Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'm curious if the two fans are really controlled separately by the SMC harness and if so, why? The only reason I can think of is to have a staggered start, to reduce the amperage spike that would occur if both fans were turned on at the same time.

I also believe I see an error in the wiring diagram. The relay controlled by the trinary switch is grounded at 85 and the blue wire from the trinary switch that is also a ground, is connected to 86. That would not actuate the relay. One of those terminals needs a +12V connection.

Last edited by daveS53; Yesterday at 01:14 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 04:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by daveS53 View Post
I'm curious if the two fans are really controlled separately by the SMC harness and if so, why? The only reason I can think of is to have a staggered start, to reduce the amperage spike that would occur if both fans were turned on at the same time.

I also believe I see an error in the wiring diagram. The relay controlled by the trinary switch is grounded at 85 and the blue wire from the trinary switch that is also a ground, is connected to 86. That would not actuate the relay. One of those terminals needs a +12V connection.
If I remember correctly, the FFR manual was wrong and the fans must be grounded and they run together ether at low or high speed. I think I posted something about this during my first build.
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Old Today, 02:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks for the help guys. I think I'll go with the two separate relays option for the two fans. Just a couple of questions:

Will there be any adverse affects to the ECU fan relays or ECU if the fans are already on due to engine temp calling for it, and the separate relays for the A/C switches on the fans, going to the same connection to the fans, which are already running? Would this overload anything?

Also wondering, if the ECU fan relays are off, and the A/C relays turn the fans on, will there be any problems with current going through the connection at the fans and back up to the ECU fan relays? Would that harm the relays?

Also wanted to make sure I could use the same power wire from the battery and split to the two new fan relays rather than two separate fuse/breaker connections.

Thanks for the help, sorry for the novice questions, this is new to me, I really appreciate it.
Keith
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