Of course I am game but I also know I am a huge underdog. Maybe Kit Car Magizine would be interested too, budget build GTM against the Goliath of SLC. "Battle of the budgets" has a ring to it.
With your HP goal and what mine is, it would not be much of a race unless I turned up the wick and then I better have a spare G50 with me. Maybe Mendeola will let me showcase there stage II box for a few days. I will not leak your secret monster that you got under your bonnet but a 5.3 truck engine with a budget turbo would be an awful sore loss, sure you want this possibility. That would definitely leave a mark.
Iron-man needs to be in the mix too, his car is all sorted out and is already running pressures that I would not feel comfortable doing.
You are well ahead of me in the build, I am hoping for July completion. BTW, I understand both of us used the same company to get our custom engine harnesses made. How did your work out?
You remind me of the guy in class that shoots a spitball at someone then runs behind the teacher when the guy comes to respond. In this case the teacher is "budget".
If you caculated your budget using a new GTM kit and donor parts instead of the deal you got from a motivated seller, our budgets would be MUCH closer. Shockingly so. You know this as fact, and if you doubt it, we can go over the #'s at Allan's house in a few weeks. If you factor in actual man hours, my build is CHEAPER than yours without a doubt.
Anyway, budget isn't a handicap in this situation. It's an excuse. It's not like I am spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to your budget. They are close. I am probably more constrained by budget than you would be if you didn't put the budget constraint on yourself to see what's possible as an exercise. Besides, you are the one who keeps calling me out. Not me.
Why would I have shame losing to a 5.3liter v8 Turbo 2400lb car in a speed competition?? My SLC is naturally aspirated. Runs only on cheap as I can find 93 octane pump gas, and idles at 600rpm dead smooth. You make it seem like you are the one handicapped. There are examples of people running 8 and 9sec quarter mile times with 5.3 LS engines from the junkyard w/custom ebay chinese turbo kits on LS1 tech. My motor won't make the power to run that fast. After all of this time I just want it to run and last. Whatever power I make I make. I can't "turn up the boost" or anything. It's just a basic build with a cool intake manifold anyone can buy.
Ironman is welcome if he decides to play nice. Anyone is welcome to make the trek.
It would be fun to set this up. The way I see it:
1) It would be spread out over multiple events during the Summer/Fall since we don't have the budget or resources of a TV show to rent out a facility to do it in one shot.
2) We need to define the events, and agreed upon measurement methods.
3) We would have witnesses keeping score and making sure we play by the rules.
4) It would be open to anyone who wants to join in.
If we could pull this off, it would be much more fun than a wax and shine car meet IMO. I would hope and the expect the rivalries to be friendly, and although any speed events are serious, no one takes the outcomes so seriously that it loses the fun aspect of it.
I spoke to the Race Director. The runway is over 2.5 miles long. 1.5 mile to top speed and 1 mile to slow down. The runway is dead smooth according to him. 300ft wide. Looks like an awesome event. They are strict about safety however, so please read the race rules for the speed class you want to race in.
The 2012 entry fee hasn't been set yet, but last year there were 147 racers, and the cost was $150 for the day. If you hot lap you can get 20 plus runs in if you choose. If you sign up, book your hotel early. There are not a lot of rooms in the area.
The dates for 2012 are: 7/14 (confirmed-will either be 1 day or 2), and the September date is TBD right now.
For the 1/4 mile event, we can piggy back on numerous track day rentals, and we can look into autocross events.
The event needing the most planning and commitment is the mile (and a half) event.
I have 4 degrees caster and my steering wheel still doesnt return to center when I let go of it... no way in hell im taking my car above 160. Im brave but not stupid. The steering is way to sensitive and still feels like the rear "shifts" on me more and more the faster it goes ... and I dont like it.
Anyone who thinks they are taking their GTM faster than that .. please let me know how .... only way I even got to that speed was by proping my elbow on the drivers door.. "free arming" the steering at that speed is a nightmare.
Now ... if you wanna top out my Busa... thats fine Ive had it 215+ ..
Maybe the Tire Rack One Lap Of America could be a good option for a show down. Sounds a lot like what you are trying to recreate. Multiple tracks and events, all with an attitude of having fun.
Funny this should come up now... one SLC owner had his car at Daytona this weekend, and says he saw 194 MPH on the speedo, with more in the bank.
I know there will be a chorus of "That's not possible, etc" but the car was fast on the banking- and stable, according to the owner.
That particular SLC is a street/track car, with AC and everything. LS7 powered, with a Porsche transaxle, IIRC.
And before Crash jumps in and says "Of course, he spent gazillion dollars!", he actually has less in that car than a lot of the GTM folks (or me, for that matter) have in parts alone.
Im not saying its not possible and I dont think panels will go flying off or tires will explode.. I think the car is a great 1/4 mile, corners good, looks good ... BUT somethings not right high speed. It might be dialed out in the suspension somehow but all my numbers look good for alignment purposes.. only thing I can think of is the rack steering is to sensitive to direction change which im sure would be great for racing corners, but its not fun going fast.
understand what you're saying. there's alot to setting up a car like this because you're asking it to perform a multitude of tasks at a high level instead of just one like say a drag car. it also should be considered that numbers don't always tell the whole tale of what a car feels like to drive either. but i will set it on fire if i can't get it to do 200mph.
Im not saying its not possible and I dont think panels will go flying off or tires will explode.. I think the car is a great 1/4 mile, corners good, looks good ... BUT somethings not right high speed. It might be dialed out in the suspension somehow but all my numbers look good for alignment purposes.. only thing I can think of is the rack steering is to sensitive to direction change which im sure would be great for racing corners, but its not fun going fast.
You are in FL, why not try and connect with JCHracer and see what can be done to figure out the issue?
Didn't you say you welded in brackets to get more caster? Do you think your lift kit has anything to do w/it?
FWIW, AllanFFR has had his GTM to 150mph and he said it felt fine.
Maybe the Tire Rack One Lap Of America could be a good option for a show down. Sounds a lot like what you are trying to recreate. Multiple tracks and events, all with an attitude of having fun.
Just a thought.
I knew someone who did this in a Supra many years ago. IIRC, he mentioned that it was fun but it was a huge time commitment, and kind of restrictive. Not to mention the $2900 entry fee.
Do you know of anyone who has done it?
If this happens, most events will be a real hike for most everyone, but at least it will be spread out over a few months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostAddiction
Funny this should come up now... one SLC owner had his car at Daytona this weekend, and says he saw 194 MPH on the speedo, with more in the bank.
I know there will be a chorus of "That's not possible, etc" but the car was fast on the banking- and stable, according to the owner.
That particular SLC is a street/track car, with AC and everything. LS7 powered, with a Porsche transaxle, IIRC.
And before Crash jumps in and says "Of course, he spent gazillion dollars!", he actually has less in that car than a lot of the GTM folks (or me, for that matter) have in parts alone.
I read this thread on the GT40 site. The pics are awesome. 194mph is moving and close to what the Sprint cup cars do there on the oval without drafting iirc. I wonder what track config they were running?
My lift holds the upper mounting position of the shock in the stock location "solid" when set in the middle position. I have tried running the car fast lower, middle, and high. I have had the car aligned in the middle position and ran it, taken it back and had it realigned and ran in the lowest position ( numbers really didnt change much at all between the two) .. doesnt make a difference with that sensitivity feeling. In the highest setting the front floats, but I figured it would be like that.
The lowest setting feels the best to me, but the suspension is pretty much gone and any type of bump in the road will bottom out on my bump stop just before the tire runs into the hood area. I dont feel sway in the car much at all and none in the lowest setting... its all real tight. I think its gotta be the steering. I was thinking about changing the toe to toe out on the front thinking it would help ?? Does anyone have an opinion on that ?
I knew someone who did this in a Supra many years ago. IIRC, he mentioned that it was fun but it was a huge time commitment, and kind of restrictive. Not to mention the $2900 entry fee.
Do you know of anyone who has done it?
Not really. We were just invited to go to it with the FFR PDG GTM by someone that was connected to it that I met at the airport on my way out from the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. I didn't think our race car would qualify, but she said it was EXACTLY the type of car they were looking for and that the street registration thing was more of a guideline than a rule. She said they had Radicals entered in it previously and that compared to that, the FFR PDG GTM would have no issues qualifying.
Frankly I wouldn't have paid her pitch much attention, but she was a good saleswoman...if you know what I mean.
You remind me of the guy in class that shoots a spitball at someone then runs behind the teacher when the guy comes to respond. In this case the teacher is "budget".
If you caculated your budget using a new GTM kit and donor parts instead of the deal you got from a motivated seller, our budgets would be MUCH closer. Shockingly so. You know this as fact, and if you doubt it, we can go over the #'s at Allan's house in a few weeks. If you factor in actual man hours, my build is CHEAPER than yours without a doubt.
Anyway, budget isn't a handicap in this situation. It's an excuse. It's not like I am spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to your budget. They are close. I am probably more constrained by budget than you would be if you didn't put the budget constraint on yourself to see what's possible as an exercise. Besides, you are the one who keeps calling me out. Not me.
Why would I have shame losing to a 5.3liter v8 Turbo 2400lb car in a speed competition?? My SLC is naturally aspirated. Runs only on cheap as I can find 93 octane pump gas, and idles at 600rpm dead smooth. You make it seem like you are the one handicapped. There are examples of people running 8 and 9sec quarter mile times with 5.3 LS engines from the junkyard w/custom ebay chinese turbo kits on LS1 tech. My motor won't make the power to run that fast. After all of this time I just want it to run and last. Whatever power I make I make. I can't "turn up the boost" or anything. It's just a basic build with a cool intake manifold anyone can buy.
Ironman is welcome if he decides to play nice. Anyone is welcome to make the trek.
It would be fun to set this up. The way I see it:
1) It would be spread out over multiple events during the Summer/Fall since we don't have the budget or resources of a TV show to rent out a facility to do it in one shot.
2) We need to define the events, and agreed upon measurement methods.
3) We would have witnesses keeping score and making sure we play by the rules.
4) It would be open to anyone who wants to join in.
If we could pull this off, it would be much more fun than a wax and shine car meet IMO. I would hope and the expect the rivalries to be friendly, and although any speed events are serious, no one takes the outcomes so seriously that it loses the fun aspect of it.
I spoke to the Race Director. The runway is over 2.5 miles long. 1.5 mile to top speed and 1 mile to slow down. The runway is dead smooth according to him. 300ft wide. Looks like an awesome event. They are strict about safety however, so please read the race rules for the speed class you want to race in.
The 2012 entry fee hasn't been set yet, but last year there were 147 racers, and the cost was $150 for the day. If you hot lap you can get 20 plus runs in if you choose. If you sign up, book your hotel early. There are not a lot of rooms in the area.
The dates for 2012 are: 7/14 (confirmed-will either be 1 day or 2), and the September date is TBD right now.
For the 1/4 mile event, we can piggy back on numerous track day rentals, and we can look into autocross events.
The event needing the most planning and commitment is the mile (and a half) event.
You in? Stop hiding behind your "budget".
Them there are fighting words, I hide behind no one! I said I was game did I not? I screw with you because your the big dawg, having had abandoned the GTM for the SLC. You are a nice guy so I thought a little fun between friends would be okay, guess not. That said, don't undersell that engine we both know what it is, you know right well even with my turbo turned all the way up I will be give away 200hp to your NA lump. I am a huge underdog and you know it. Will I back down because you have more power, if you think I will, you do not know me very well. I back down to know one... win, lose or draw. The facts are the facts, your intake alone costs more than my engine, turbo and trans all put together. The only thing I have going for me is the fact I will have a budget supercar that will perform as well or near your high dollar SLC. The whole idea of the GTM is a "blue collar" supercar. I am proving that is the case with my car. The SLC is and was never meant to be an affordable supercar, at least not in the same sense as the GTM is. Build both basic and the SLC is the more expensive car to build, which is really not that surprising seeing it uses company designed hardware and suspensions. Can I afford to build with more $$, hell yes, as you made clear these are self created constraints. If I spent 25K more, then you would have a run for your money (if you don't already). You know you have a much better chance at beating me, hence the tone of the post, hopefully it is half kidding. I called you out as friendly banter but seems like you are taking it the wrong way....which is cool if you need to feel like that. I called you out and I will be ready to bring the wood shed with me. You do know not having windows doesn't make the car any faster right.
lets get it on! round these parts they say: "PUT THE MONEY ON THE HOOD!" when it gets heated! kinda funny to downplay a forged, balanced, 468ci ls engine though. anyone seen the dyno numbers on these combos? they start around 700hp with factory ls3 heads! i'll fly out to see the competition though, sounds like fun to me!
Them there are fighting words, I hide behind no one! I said I was game did I not? I screw with you because your the big dawg, having had abandoned the GTM for the SLC. You are a nice guy so I thought a little fun between friends would be okay, guess not. That said, don't undersell that engine we both know what it is, you know right well even with my turbo turned all the way up I will be give away 200hp to your NA lump. I am a huge underdog and you know it. Will I back down because you have more power, if you think I will, you do not know me very well. I back down to know one... win, lose or draw. The facts are the facts, your intake alone costs more than my engine, turbo and trans all put together. The only thing I have going for me is the fact I will have a budget supercar that will perform as well or near your high dollar SLC. The whole idea of the GTM is a "blue collar" supercar. I am proving that is the case with my car. The SLC is and was never meant to be an affordable supercar, at least not in the same sense as the GTM is. Build both basic and the SLC is the more expensive car to build, which is really not that surprising seeing it uses company designed hardware and suspensions. Can I afford to build with more $$, hell yes, as you made clear these are self created constraints. If I spent 25K more, then you would have a run for your money (if you don't already). You know you have a much better chance at beating me, hence the tone of the post, hopefully it is half kidding. I called you out as friendly banter but seems like you are taking it the wrong way....which is cool if you need to feel like that. I called you out and I will be ready to bring the wood shed with me. You do know not having windows doesn't make the car any faster right.
Fuzzy, you took my post completely 180 degrees of my intention.
It's all fun, hence my everywhere. My bad if I didn't make it clear or it came off as anything other than friendly banter. You bust my chops, and I'm just busting yours. There wasn't a mean intention in my mind as I typed it. All of the banter we've had online, offline and meeting in person made me comfortable you would take it in fun. Again, my bad if I took it too far and it read differently to you.
I used your "challenge(s)" as a segway, but I think it would be cool to setup some events for our cars besides parking them in a lot to wax them. And I am dead serious about doing it. Any challenges are meant in fun, not to see who has a bigger *$^!. That's how I took all of your jabs.
Fuzzy, you took my post completely 180 degrees of my intention.
It's all fun, hence my everywhere. My bad if I didn't make it clear or it came off as anything other than friendly banter. You bust my chops, and I'm just busting yours. There wasn't a mean intention in my mind as I typed it. All of the banter we've had online, offline and meeting in person made me comfortable you would take it in fun. Again, my bad if I took it too far and it read differently to you.
I used your "challenge(s)" as a segway, but I think it would be cool to setup some events for our cars besides parking them in a lot to wax them. And I am dead serious about doing it. Any challenges are meant in fun, not to see who has a bigger *$^!. That's how I took all of your jabs.
Okay I guess I read into it wrong, sometimes my temper flairs. Easy to be a key board bully. I have egg on my face. As for who has a bigger d*^k, neither, thats why we have these cars. I know, speak for my myself.
if i cant get mine to 200mph when i finish i'll set it on fire. i've had a fox body mustang 160 mph
See what it takes to get that foxbody to 200mph....aerodynamic loads grow exponentially. Getting to 160 is one thing, getting to 200 is a whole different ballgame....it's just not that easy. Point is, don't be too upset if you don't get it.
don't mean to bust your bubble but it's been done several times. car craft did it over 10 yrs. ago in a fox body gt with 800hp at trc oval. lots of can't and not enough cans. why in the hell can't you make a 2400lb, low slung, tube-framed(basically a race car) go 200 mph? i've seen a '32 ford do it for cryin out loud.if mine won't do it i'll set it on fire. i had 400 hp in the gt i took to 160 and it takes about double that to reach 200mph.(already proven by CAR CRAFT). considering the dramatic difference in aerodynamics with the gtm it shouldn't be a problem. the final drive ratio and the rpm's of the engine in the tallest gear it will pull against aerodynamic resistance is what will dictate top speed. now that being said, i admit the car will have to be properly set up to feel stable at these speeds. p.s. i don't plan on setting it on fire. (stock vette does 198mph now) HEY CRASH I HAD MY POPCORN OUT TOO!
Last edited by carbon fiber; 12-07-2011 at 12:19 PM..
just turn up the heat on your build so we can make book the reservations for the events.
We are very close to go-cart, the body is in primer but many new body mods will delay things slightly, I plan to help Joe Mush with his interior and he offered to help me. Don't know how long it takes to do the interior? The only sticking point (time wise) is getting the turbo property installed and tuned correctly and tuning the suspension correctly for high speed. But July should be plenty of time.
As for my post, it just struck a cord with me. It wasn't till about ten years ago I got aggressive (guess a little business success and MMA will do that). Growing up, I was that nerdy fat poor kid, I needed to hide behind a lot of things. Now I am aggressive, to much so, being in my late 30's I guess I should cut the crap. Sorry again....
Guys looking at the rules, it dosent look like you can do to much out there with a GTM (I dont know anything about a SLC) Reading the rules it says that if your going to go over 175 then your vehicle has to have a chute and Full rollcage! They look like there really up tight about the rules.
Am I missing something?
Im not saying it wont make it there horsepower wise, with the colder air outside I can blow the tires off now in 5 th gear... not from poping the clutch.. but just be in gear when the turbo spools and watchem light up and hope you werent on a turn when they do. Areodynamically and weight wise I dont think anyone is questioning it.
What Im saying is the steering, on my car at least, is so tight theres is NO play at all. Ive never thought about it actually being a problem, but at those speeds its almost as if you need the steering NOT to react so fast and you definatley need the wheel to want to return to center naturally. Im sure I could go ahead and floor it and hope for the best on up to 200, but its a gamble on how its gonna respond and im not comfortable playing like that with 100,000 dollars when its that sensitive at 160 already.
I have actually had an old 5.0 up to I think 135-140 with stock suspension and that thing was a death trap.... the sheer floating / drifting feeling it has either through lack of frame stiffness or lack of shocks sucked BAD. If the suspenion on one of those was upgraded I could see it doing 160 comfortably... the GTM doesnt have anything like that going on as its suspension is REAL tight... thats apples to oranges !
The only way I think you are gonna understand what Im saying is if you have ever had a vehicle go into a back and forth sway... happens more on dirt that it does on asphault, but if your going fast enough it can happen there too. My car feels like its on the verge of that at 160 so I absolutely hesitate to take it past that.
my last comment was directed towards rc0003. i understand where you're coming from ironman, many of these cars will never see these speeds we're talking about and it won't matter to them about top speed. the comment from rc0003 sounded to me like i didn't know what it takes to do over 200mph in a fox body mustang...i know because its been done mulitiple times. there are trucks that will do 200mph.the mustang i have will pull 1g lateral and is totally stable at speed but it's far from stock suspension-wise and lower than stock.
We are very close to go-cart, the body is in primer but many new body mods will delay things slightly, I plan to help Joe Mush with his interior and he offered to help me. Don't know how long it takes to do the interior? The only sticking point (time wise) is getting the turbo property installed and tuned correctly and tuning the suspension correctly for high speed. But July should be plenty of time.
As for my post, it just struck a cord with me. It wasn't till about ten years ago I got aggressive (guess a little business success and MMA will do that). Growing up, I was that nerdy fat poor kid, I needed to hide behind a lot of things. Now I am aggressive, to much so, being in my late 30's I guess I should cut the crap. Sorry again....
July sounds good. Let me know if you are really sure as we should book accommodations asap. There are not a lot of hotels up there and from what I've been told you need to book them right away. If something comes up there should be plenty of time to cancel the hotel stay well before July w/out penalty. Allan already said he is in for July. I put this thread in the RCR section on the GT40 site too to see if anyone had any interest. The more the merrier.
The event doesn't have to be a real "competition". In my eyes it's a safe venue to test how the cars feel at triple digit speeds legally w/out the worry of a turn coming up on a road course. If something is off, shut it down and turn off. Tweak what's possible and line up again to test. Best way to find and sort out any issues.
Don't sweat it. We all have our aggressive sides and histories. It's all good.
Guys looking at the rules, it dosent look like you can do to much out there with a GTM (I dont know anything about a SLC) Reading the rules it says that if your going to go over 175 then your vehicle has to have a chute and Full rollcage! They look like there really up tight about the rules.
Am I missing something?
Reading the rule book, it looks like they *may* make exceptions in some cases if you notify them and work it out a few months before the event. I plan on taking my SLC w/out the body to the tech inspector of the event in January sometime. He owns a shop near Allan's house.
If he does require a chute, they are not terribly expensive, and are easy to remove. Both the GTM and SLC have some good mounting point options that should save the fiberglass from any permanent mods.
I'm not going to question safety requirements though. They are there for a reason.
The
representations expressed are the representations and opinions of
the FFCars.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Factory Five
Racing, Inc. or Ford Motor Company. This website
has been planned and developed by FFCars.com and its forum members
and should not be construed as being endorsed by Factory Five
Racing, Inc. or Ford Motor Company for any
purpose. "FFR", "Factory Five", "Factory Five Racing", and the
Factory Five Racing logo are registered trademarks of Factory Five
Racing, Inc. FFCars.com forum members agree not to
post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is
owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages
posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these
messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason
whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your
messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with
respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).
Thank you for visiting the FFCars.com Forum dedicated to Factory
Five.
Linear Mode
