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Old 10-28-2011, 08:11 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Why are so many GTM's for sale?

I hate to ask, since I am a long time fan, but why do so many builers sell their GTM's shortly after completion? I know that there are quite a lot that are kept and enjoyed but it seems odd to me that after all the time, sweat, and energy somebody would sell. I have been planning and saving for a build for quite some time..... more often than not, a well built GTM comes up for sale that is cheaper than what I could do on my own... and allows for some personal touches. This doesn't seem to be the case with the SL-C from RCR. Now before you torch me, this is just an observation. I have been doing extensive research into both cars, and to date, I have found myself leaning far more toward the SL-C. A good quaility build is ball park the same price, but the fit and finish of SL-C seems easier to attain. There is so much documented on poor fitment of the body on the GTM, I am a little more than gun shy. Most honest GTM builders report 2000 +/- hours to finish a GTM with high quality (Richard O, a pro no less), an SL-C is 50% less than than. In the end, When my finances are set (I'm setting aside 65K cash before I begin the journey) I will just have to wait and see who has finished and selling their high end GTM vs starting my own SL-C build. Not trying to stir the pot. These are honest questions and observations. I just put on my fire suit, let the flames begin.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I can't shed any light on why people are selling their cars since I still have all three of the kit cars that I built but I can tell you that I believe your observations about build time and cost are pretty accurate. A GTM can be built for less than a SLC but you have to be happy to have all used parts in your build and not go overboard on the paint job. If you are the kind of person that has to have everything new than the GTM is going to come in at about the same price. I also agree the build time is less on the SLC. I have not built an SLC but it looks to be pretty similar to the RCR GT40 that I built for assembly. My GT40 went together much faster than my GTM except for delays caused by backordered parts. I was one of the first if not the first person to get a RCR40 Deluxe Plus kit so some of the parts were still being developed while I was building. I believe a lot of those issues have been corrected since then.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
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How many SLCs have been sold so far?

How many are actually completed?

When you are working from a pool of over 300 cars, as opposed to however many SLCs have been sold, there are ALWAYS going to be a few cars for sale.

The SLC is a fine product, that will take less time to complete than a GTM to the same level, but you certainly do pay for it. GTM kit around $20k. SLC kit around $50k. If you have $65k to work with, there is no question in my mind that you can build a GTM that will compare performance wise to a $65k SLC.

Bodywork may not be as clean on the GTM, but I think you will have a pretty tough time finishing even the most basic of SLCs for $65K.

A good point someone else made, and really applies to ANY car, is the phenomenon that occurs whenever you drive a car off a showroom floor...it immediately drops in value by 40% or so, and to a point where you probably couldn't build it from parts for that amount of $$.

I know I was looking at nice sports cars there for awhile and thinking "why not just buy one of these, change the body over to something like the GTM, and have all the computers and safety equipment that I couldn't even think of buying for a GTM at the same price of this used car". In other words, no one is EVER going to get what they put into a car unless they are an OEM type dealer, or get VERY lucky.

Look at the RPM built cars. The one cost the owner $260 large!! Think he will EVER see that kind of money for that car? Even if it was featured on cable TV?

NOPE!!

If you're a dreamer with a bunch of cash then you won't go wrong either way.

If you are a budget minded individual that is looking for base performance and pretty good looks...then IMHO the GTM is the way to go, and probably a second hand kit.

Although just my personal opinion, but I believe there will be a lot fewer of these come up in the years to come.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Great thoughts, pretty much in line with my research, thanks for the reply's. Crash, I do take into account that there are not many SL-C's out there, therefore fewer to re-sell. I don't have a bunch of cash to throw away...... that said I am a car junkie and I am very determined. It will require, at some point, selling my cobra. I have mixed feeling about that. it's been a dream car for me for quite some time. Truth be told, I would by Hitech's car in a heartbeat, but I won't be on track with cash until the spring or June of 2012 at best, bummer for me, it's a great build for a great price IMO. In the end, my biggest worry isn't turning a wrench, it's body and paint.... mostly body. I can wrench anything given enough time, but good body work is an art and skill that I do not possess. Time and cash will tell. For now, the weather in Cali is perfect and the roadster in running / looking great.
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The SLC takes much less than 50% of the time to build compared to the GTM. You can build a SLC from 200-400hrs including top level paint depending on your skill level and how far away you stray from a "standard build". It's even easier now with the custom plug and play SLC specific ISIS kit that is now included in the standard kit.

Of course there are less SLC's on the market compared to GTMs. The GTM has been on the market much longer than the SLC and has an entry price much lower than a SLC. It doesn't help that the SLC was introduced on the front end of a historic recession while the GTM was released around the height of an economic bubble.

Between the low entry price and once the reality hits of how big a project completing a GTM is, you have a recipe for some builders cutting their losses and jumping ship.

Then you have the extreme 1% who have owned/built multiple GTMs. They know it inside and out. It fulfills their desires, and they have the means economically and effort-wise to complete the journey many times over.

If you will do all of the labor, you can build a very nice GTM for less than a SLC. If you pay for body/paint or a builder to complete the kit, the SLC is cheaper.

Look at the forum sponsor vraptorspeedworks. He has identical spec'd turn key packages for the GTM and the SLC. The SLC is less expensive.

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Old 10-29-2011, 01:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The SLC takes much less than 50% of the time to build compared to the GTM. You can build a SLC from 200-400hrs including top level paint depending on your skill level and how far away you stray from a "standard build". It's even easier now with the custom plug and play SLC specific ISIS kit that is now included in the standard kit.

Of course there are less SLC's on the market compared to GTMs. The GTM has been on the market much longer than the SLC and has an entry price much lower than a SLC. It doesn't help that the SLC was introduced on the front end of a historic recession while the GTM was released around the height of a economic bubble.

Between the low entry price and once the reality hits of how big a project completing a GTM is, you have a recipe for some builders cutting their losses and jumping ship.

Then you have the extreme 1% who have owned/built multiple GTMs. They know it inside and out. It fulfills their desires, and they have the means economically and effort-wise to complete the journey many times over.

If you will do all of the labor, you can build a very nice GTM for less than a SLC. If you pay for body/paint or a builder to complete the kit, the SLC is cheaper.

Look at the forum sponsor vraptorspeedworks. He has identical spec'd turn key packages for the GTM and the SLC. The SLC is less expensive.
My thoughts exactly.... I know I will spend at least 65 to 70K on a GTM build to get it "right" and based on what I've seen posted I question how "right" some of it will turn out if not professionally built. I believe I can put the same amount into an SL-C that will outperform a GTM and look better to boot. Again, time and cash. I have the time to plan the build, I have half the cash....... Hope my order can be placed early June of 2012.
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I don't know anything about the SLC so I wont comment.

Last July when I started getting serious and had the talk with the wife about getting a GTM she didn't like the amount of money it was going to cost so I agreed to buy a used or partly build GTM. I started looking on the forum and at the time only found one used GTM and nothing that was in build stage. This was from July to late September. By that time the GEN 2 was ready for order and will all the (cost so much cheaper to build stuff) I jumped on it. So I too have noticed a huge spike in available GTM's in the build stage or used.
Yes I am sure the economy has played a part in this.
But what really bothers me about this is all the builders with GTM's that they have just completed and are now after all that money and hard work are selling???? Seems to me that they have just got to the fun part seeing all there hard work pay off and there just going to sell it for 80% or so of what they have in it. This makes me worry that maby they have a finished product and there not completely happy with it. Or its just not what they expected. This worries me a little seeing how I purchased a GTM kit having never seen a completed GTM in person, and since I am having my GTM built by someone else I will have a ton of money in mine with no way to recover nearly as much money as people who built there own cars if I decide to sell it when completed. Scary thought! I just really hope that the reason these just completed GTM's are on the market have more to do with the builders life, finances, economy or something other than the car it self.
But thinking about this ahead of time I decided that I would have the most professionally built GTM that I could. And thats why I sent it half way across the country to Shane!
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Some sales are no doubt a product of our current economy. But I believe some were purchased with the original intent to build and sale for profit or business expansion testing..

I've noticed that about an even split of the completed GTMs for sale (and some incomplete kits too) are from businesses. I'm sure all of them had hopes for making a profit or breaking even to see if it could become a part of their business.
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I beleive there are those of us who enjoy the process of building something like a GTM and those of us who enjoy owning a GTM. If someone asks what hobbies I have I tell them that I like building cars not collecting them. For me, when I get done with a build, I enjoy driving the car but my mind starts to wander on to what I should build next. This then leads to how to fund the next build and where to store all the stuff. For me, this process takes a year or two after the completion of a build at which point I start thinking about selling the car so I can get on with what I enjoy - building.

I am guessing a fair number of the GTM's that get built and sold follow this pattern and we are now seeing enough completed builds where there is always going to be a handful of GTM's for sale. I am sure the economy has some folks looking at the $50,000+ (parts only) investment pushing them to use this investment for other purposes than their next project but I remain hopeful that for most this is just the natural cycle of their addiction (hobby).
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I dont think that the number of GTM's for sale says anything about the quality of the car or a customer being unsatisfied with the product. I for one love the build process. While I do enjoy driving and showing the GTM I will more then likely keep the car till next year sometime then sell it. I have built a Cobra and a GTM and want to try the 818. I'm with Hwoods, I think that its a hobby(addiction).
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I dont think that the number of GTM's for sale says anything about the quality of the car or a customer being unsatisfied with the product. I for one love the build process. While I do enjoy driving and showing the GTM I will more then likely keep the car till next year sometime then sell it. I have built a Cobra and a GTM and want to try the 818. I'm with Hwoods, I think that its a hobby(addiction).

818 will only be 15K

Have both.
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Old 10-29-2011, 11:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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When you look at the ENTIRE process from purchase through completion and then ownership of the final product, both the GTM and the SL-C have compromises, some of which are common to both cars and others that are unique to each marque.

Study them both, understand the strengths and weaknesses of each, buy and build the one that best suits your needs, share your experiences with everyone, and if at all possible try and refrain from re-validating your choice by bashing someone elses choice to go a different direction. If we all do that we will all have a very fulfilling experience.

Fwiw, the sale of partially completed cars, completed cars, and finished cars well below the amount invested is NOT unique to either car. These things happen for a variety of reasons.

And I will repeat something I've said many times, if you build one, drive it for 3 years, and then sell it for 50% of what you invested, then you are pretty much keeping pace with any production car's rate of depreciation. Expecting more than that is not realistic. . . IMO.
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Old 10-29-2011, 11:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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No doubt the SLC will be able to perform but it doesn’t look anywhere as good as the GTM does and it looks so low that it would be next to impossible to enjoy off of the race track.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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No doubt the SLC will be able to perform but it doesn’t look anywhere as good as the GTM does...
Looks are subjective, and I felt the same way which is why I bought a GTM first. It wasn't until I saw a SLC in person that I felt differently.

Side by side, the GTM is still a great looking car, but the SLC is visually assaulting. It's gorgeous in a sinister/aggressive way. It doesn't share a lot of lines or design cues with other cars. That unfamiliarity takes some time to process visually and mentally. I don't completely know why, but the SLC is a different car in person. The "bubble windshield" is small and beautiful in person but looked huge in early shots of the car on the web. It's only recently that flattering pictures of the SLC have surfaced.

That said, it's still subjective and ymmv. Different strokes.

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.... and it looks so low that it would be next to impossible to enjoy off of the race track.
The SLC and GTM have the same ground clearance.
It's an optical illusion that the SLC is lower due to the body shape/dimensions, but when you take out the tape measure (and look at the instruction manual specs), they are about the same ground clearance wise.

The SLC's suspension is also far more adjustable than the GTM.
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The SLC's suspension is also far more adjustable than the GTM.
And don't forget, only manufactured by RCR.

Really glad to see some measured and reasonable responses here by individuals that actually own the SLC.

I've always been for presenting an honest side by side comparison of the two products and letting the individuals choose what is right for them, as opposed to the "hard sell" stuff of "this one is better, and here is why" type of thing.

Just glad to see other folks doing the same.

There are quite a few differences, and for some the GTM will be the right choice, and for others the SLC will be the right choice. My biggest recommendation I can make is to do your due diligence on both before deciding. Otherwise, you will most likely forever be second guessing the one you chose.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Building / owning any kind of a specialty vehicle is a risky proposition.
It all depends on one's perspective tho.

Having owned race cars on & off for 30 years, I have spent countless thousands of $s & thousands of hours of work only to bring them home from the track in a stinking, blown-up - crashed pile of crap. But yet year after year - kept doing the same thing over & over. (what's the definition of insanity?) But I always accepted the risks & danger involved.
I wouldn't change a thing for the great experiences gained.
Either you are in the race or sitting at home watching it on TV.

Here's the deal - either you want to do this (kit car thing) & accept the risks, or you shouldn't do it - go back to watching "Dancing with the Stars" or whatever,
believe me it's a lot cheaper / easier.

But if you really want to challenge yourself, learn new skills, meet great people, etc. -- forget rational thinking & take the plunge.

Will you get back all the money you spend -- NO
Will you be rewarded financially for all the hours spent -- NO
Will it be easy - hell NO
Will it be one of the best experiences of your life? -- only YOU can answer that question.

As far as what car is better, I like em both & a lot of others too.
Definitely see one in person.
Do your research, try to find a builder/owner that can answer questions, maybe get a test drive - sit in it.
Then go get the one you like best - if you are crazy enough.

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Old 10-31-2011, 09:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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trackzpeed...I notice you're in redding....I have two gtm's in my shop now...you should come by sometime and see just what the bodywork is all about. cheers,
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Old 11-01-2011, 03:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
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And don't forget, only manufactured by RCR.
Are you viewing this as something negative?
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Old 11-01-2011, 03:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Are you viewing this as something negative?
Just pointing out the trade off.

Yeah the RCR suspension is more adjustable, but it is only available from RCR, so not only must you get replacement parts from RCR, which may or may not take some time, but that also means that the price point is entirely up to the ONE supplier in the world.

Like everything else, there are pros and cons.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Just pointing out the trade off.

Yeah the RCR suspension is more adjustable, but it is only available from RCR, so not only must you get replacement parts from RCR, which may or may not take some time, but that also means that the price point is entirely up to the ONE supplier in the world.

Like everything else, there are pros and cons.
I can't argue with your assessment as they are facts, but I guess I have a different perspective.

In my time with many high performance cars that I ran hard at the drag strip and on hpde days (not door to door racing of course), I have NEVER bought a suspension part besides shocks, bushings, or springs.

Maybe I was just lucky, but unless you are in an accident those hard parts don't really wear out too easily, if ever in a street driven vehicle.

Because your comment got me to thinking about it, I asked Fran how much an a-arm would cost should I hit a curb or something (can easily happen on the street unfortunately), and the cost was very reasonable (comparing to a new Corvette a-arm).

Granted, there isn't a used market that will allow you to get a RCR a-arm for next to nothing like there is for the Corvette piece, so there is still a trade off I guess.

As what was said earlier in the thread, all of these cars are a series of tradeoffs to different degrees.

Do your due diligence when assessing your options. But beforehand, write down the fundamental criteria that are important to YOU, so you have something to measure against.

I didn't really do that when I first started lusting after a kit car 6 years ago. I went with my initial emotions and visions without any further detailed thought. It wasn't until many $$$ into my first build that I started to write down thoughts I was having that I should have defined before I started.

They ended up being:

1) Interior space and safety
2) Superior Performance Potential
3) Looks
4) Minimal required mods to correct kit flaws. ie: kit quality/good kit design

Other people have different priorities/requirements, and some come to different conclusions for the same requirements. Again, different strokes.

What's important to take from this is to manage your emotions (hard but possible), talk to builders, look at the cars in person, do your due diligence, and have your eyes wide open with whatever kit you decide to build. Doesn't matter if it's FFR, RCR, SuperPerformance, Backdraft or any other kit on the market.

There is a reason(s) it's estimated that only 30% of kit cars sold regardless of manufacturer ever get completed.

The odds are against us!
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:28 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Yes there are pros and cons to either car. I've been mulling over that issue and I don't know how much weight we should give to the "one-design" issue. If we worried too much about a "one supplier", most of us would run away from our builds! Where would we get a replacement Ricardo, Mendeola, body or frame parts or even some of your custom parts if not from the one manufacturer/supplier?

I guess you do need to way the perceived pros/cons, choose your path and go for it. One guys "con" is another one's "pro"....

There are more GTMs for sale because there are more out there and less due to quality of build or distrust of the manufacturer in my opinion.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Honestly, I would count on RCR being able to supply a replacement part for an SL-C 10 years from now more that I would count on GM to supply replacement parts for the 'Vette. Yes, you will still be able to buy them used, but getting new parts for a C5 gets harder every day thru GM. Every time I call them to order a part, I find out a new part that they've discontinued.......

And yes, as Stage7 pointed out, to have a turn-key car built, there is a point at which it is cheaper for me to build an SL-C than a GTM......and pretty much 100% of that is due to time spent on bodywork/paint.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:36 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Honestly, I would count on RCR being able to supply a replacement part for an SL-C 10 years from now more that I would count on GM to supply replacement parts for the 'Vette. Yes, you will still be able to buy them used, but getting new parts for a C5 gets harder every day thru GM. Every time I call them to order a part, I find out a new part that they've discontinued.......

And yes, as Stage7 pointed out, to have a turn-key car built, there is a point at which it is cheaper for me to build an SL-C than a GTM......and pretty much 100% of that is due to time spent on bodywork/paint.
But again, as we have talked about previously, you are a little anal about the bodywork. Not that this is a bad thing, but it is costly. You want to turn out the best product you can, within your customers budget constraints. FFR, as far as I can tell, sacrificed a perfect body right out of the mold in order to offer their GTM kit at about 40% of the cost of the SLC. This allows those that are worried about little besides head snapping performance to have a low entry price, yet those that want the OEM type fit and finish will have to spend more or take more time to make it so. So again there are trade offs, and as everyone has pointed out, for equal performance, AND equal fit and finish, they will cost about the same. So, IMHO, it comes down to "do you want cheap preformance with reasonably good looks(GTM), or do you want equal performance with better fit and finish?(SLC)".

Either way, none of these kit cars are "cheap" and require some elevated skills to both build and drive.

Again, do the research, make your decision.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Thanks for the input Shane and Crash, et al... I have been planning/saving for a GTM build for along time... even tried to pick up 2 unfinished kits but it never quite worked out. As you point out, what's got me stumped is the body fitment, and work. I read so many post regarding widows, rear hatch, headlight covers, wheel wells.... the list goes on and on. Someone recently pointed out how "the right front always seems to sit higher off the ground" and "many GTM's look like they crab down the road like an old Chevy truck".... and these comments are from GTM supporters. I suspect many people give up on their GTM's at the body and paint phase but are happy through the go-cart process...just an observation. As many have said, I will continue my research to make the best personal choice, but as of now, my choice will be the SL-C.
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:26 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Well then, I highly recommend Shane as a builder. Since the SLC is marketed more as a pay up for less issues for an OEM type finish, and since the SLC is more about the finished product and less about the journey, then having Shane do you up an SLC makes sense. He'll deliver it to you finished, and probably for less money than you would end up spending if you built it yourself.

It appears you prefer this route since you list a Levy built car for your FFR.



Personally, I highly enjoy the journey, and making the car "my own".
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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"many GTM's look like they crab down the road like an old Chevy truck"....
I dont know if I would put too much faith in this statement! I'm by know means a pro car builder but I have put together a pretty nice car on a budget that there is no way you could come close to completing a SLC for and it isn't a stock car either. I like the SLC and am not knocking it by any means but I knew my limits $ wise when I started. Pm me and I will fill you in on the cost as I don't want to get into a slugfest with anyone.

Heres one of my videos of the car about 90% complete.

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Old 11-01-2011, 09:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Getting back on track...

The GTM is a Supercar that by default is compared to Farrari and Lamborghini.

These comparable cars have a high level of detail in fit and finish. They don't leak air. They (mostly) don't let engine smells into the cockpit. Most builders don't achieve the level of fit and finish to compare to Farrari or Lamborghini. This includes the ability to find reverse gear when you want to. There are many kit cars built today that fit and finish would be less than a new Yugo. Let me put it to you another way. If Yugo's were sold with leaks and engine smells coming into the cockpit they would not be in business today...wait a minute.

Many builders don't realize what high expectations of fit and finish without air leaks and engine smells we desire. So we build the cars not knowing the level of fit and finish detail we need to put into these cars. Then when it is too late to go back and build fit and finish into the car we become disillusioned and some sell their creations.

The Roadster doesn't have a leak issue or a fit and finish issue because of the origional car it replicated. There are less expectations although many Roadsters have good fit and finish.

The GTM has high expectations.

What I learn from this is to seal what needs to be sealed, and build the car to a modern day production car fit and finish. Then I won’t be disappointed and tempted to sell.
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Getting back on track...

The GTM is a Supercar that by default is compared to Farrari and Lamborghini.
Did you REALLY expect a comparable car for 1/10 the price?

Just because you were not an experienced builder and ended up somewhat disappointed with your finished product does not mean FFR is wrong in building an inexpensive "supercar". It just means you didn't know what you were doing when you built it.

On the plus side, your explanation may help others avoid the same fate either by discouraging them, or telling them what they need to do that you didn't know the first time around.
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:37 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Did you REALLY expect a comparable car for 1/10 the price?
Yes but at 1/3 the price

Quote:
Originally Posted by crash View Post
Just because you were not an experienced builder and ended up somewhat disappointed with your finished product does not mean FFR is wrong in building an inexpensive "supercar". It just means you didn't know what you were doing when you built it.
Certainly you can't mean me I'm not done building and I'm not disappointed. Do I know what I'm doing? Hmmm. Wait I can't use Hmmm, I must start using (wink.

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On the plus side, your explanation may help others avoid the same fate either by discouraging them, or telling them what they need to do that you didn't know the first time around.
That is the reason for my post. I'm not selling my GTM. No way (wink.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:47 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Heres one of my videos of the car about 90% complete.

FFR GTM after paint - YouTube
WOW... not bad lookin at all for an "old chevy" ... really ??? Cmon, how is that comparison even possible ? The body is off... but not enough to see visually !? give me a break !

Im surprised you got that car to capture on camera .. heres what happened when they tried to film mine !

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