Dang I broke my new toy - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

kbentzel · 07-21-2009, 01:26 AM

Went on a test drive tonight looking for some twisties....boy that's fun...anyway pushed in the clutch, foot goes to the floor, uh oh! Found 5th made it within one traffic light of the house when my luck ran out. I finally got her home but I'm not sure what happened. Somehow the slave is no longer engaged with the fork or the fork fell off and the wierd thing is the fluid in the master cylinder went dark alomost black. Any ideas what happened? I'll post again when I figure it out.
Keith

DOHCCobra · 07-21-2009, 03:12 AM

If the fluid in the master is black that is a good sign that one of the seals in either the master of the slave deteriorated and the black that you are seeing is little bits of rubber. So basically the system can't build pressure it leaks by the piston seal. If you are not losing fluid it is most likely the master cylinder, where it leaks by and stays in the reservoir. If it were the slave and you pull the boot off, fluid would be leaking out.

Shane · 07-21-2009, 03:31 AM

Seems like brake fluid gets darker as it absorbs water....any chance that you got a bunch of water in the system somehow?....or a very contaminated/dirty slave cyl?

Richard Migliori · 07-21-2009, 04:53 AM

If evrything moves except it feels the throwout bearing is not, then I'm afraid you broke the yoke that holds the fork shaft in place. If so, you got forked. LOL

It happened to alot of guys here.

RM

jdpanero · 07-21-2009, 05:28 AM

I've slowly gotten darker fluid only on the clutch MC, but I have no problems.

I'll fix it when it breaks.

KoosGTM · 07-21-2009, 12:49 PM

My clutch reservoir also turned dark over time. Everything works fine though. Does it makes sense to drain the brake fluid for clean fluid? I don't race my car.

Ron565 · 07-21-2009, 01:40 PM

It happened to me. Check to see you have travel at the slave cylinder when someone pushes the clutch peddle. Do you have any leaks?
What happened to me was, I pushed the peddle in to far and broke pivot shaft retainer. Had to take the tranny out and have it welded.
I hope that's not the case. That's why I installed a clutch peddle stop. If you go to far it make a god awful noise.

Ron

Richard Oben · 07-21-2009, 02:06 PM

I did the bone head thing and forgot to loc tite the pivot pin retaining bolt in. In short I took a turn and the pin came out. I put the pin and the new bolt and it has been fine since. Here is to hoping yours is a simple fix. Cheers Richard.

eeeny · 07-21-2009, 04:32 PM

Jacob, I wonder if the air vent in the cap on your clutch master cylinder doesn't have a seal installed. I had 4 caps as I bought a smaller diameter master for the clutch to reduce the travel, then I noticed that on one of the caps you could see daylight through the air vent hole, so I just didn't use that one.

Maybe the hygroscopic clutch fluid is slowly absorbing moisture from the air through the hole in the cap and turing dark.

Ian

crash · 07-21-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeny

Jacob, I wonder if the air vent in the cap on your clutch master cylinder doesn't have a seal installed. I had 4 caps as I bought a smaller diameter master for the clutch to reduce the travel, then I noticed that on one of the caps you could see daylight through the air vent hole, so I just didn't use that one.

Maybe the hygroscopic clutch fluid is slowly absorbing moisture from the air through the hole in the cap and turing dark.

Ian

There are really two ways to vent a master. Either a sealed system with a bellows to allow for fluid gain/lose in the res, or open to the atmosphere. Most street versions are open to the atmosphere. All race versions, IMO, should be the closed type to avoid spillage of fluid. Water in the fluid really doesn't hurt anything in the performance of the clutch MC. Over time it can corrode the cylinder and lead to failure so the fluid should be changed every year or so, but water in the fluid of the clutch really doesn't effect things like water in the brake fluid.

eeeny · 07-21-2009, 04:53 PM

when I said seal, I mean a sort of flapper valve that lets air in when there is a pressure difference, but doesn't let air just diffuse in.

kbentzel · 07-22-2009, 12:10 AM

Well upon further investigation....Richard you were right.....Migliori....Darn I was rooting for Oben. Forked I am. Busted it right off. Why is really the question? Does the FFR supplied slave travel too far? Mine never gave any indication of that. Maybe you guys that had noise and installed a stop are on to something. Really hadn't planned on removing the transaxle after 300 miles.

JCHRacer · 07-22-2009, 01:12 AM

Ouch, I hate when that happens!

I have always installed an adjustable clutch pedal stop on all my cars. I am surprised that FFR would not have included that feature. A stop bolt on the firewall is usually the easiest to fab up. Put the car in gear and have someone push the car. Push the clutch slowly until the clutch disengages and the car starts to move. Adjust the stop so that the pedal moves no further that required to disengage the clutch.

crash · 07-22-2009, 01:59 PM

With all due respect, a bolt on the firewall is usually as good as worthless due to how thin the firewall material is. There is a two piece stop that goes on the MC and is adjustable. I don't know where I got them, I may have even made them many moons ago, but I have a few on the shelf. If I get a chance, I'll get a pic of the setup.

JCHRacer · 07-22-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash

With all due respect, a bolt on the firewall is usually as good as worthless due to how thin the firewall material is. There is a two piece stop that goes on the MC and is adjustable. I don't know where I got them, I may have even made them many moons ago, but I have a few on the shelf. If I get a chance, I'll get a pic of the setup.

I agree that a stop on an un-reinforced firewall would work very well. I just think that it is good design practice to take the load out close the point of load application rather that resisting the load after it has been multiplied by the pedal ratio (which can get quite high). Either way, I’m interested to see what you are talking about.

crash · 07-22-2009, 02:31 PM

Yes, it is a small very strong part that attaches to the same bolts the MC use to attach to whatever mount it uses. Usually the MC mounting is very strong because of the leverage involved that you state.

kbentzel · 07-25-2009, 01:08 PM

Well here's the damage. The question is how do I successfully repair it? Ideas?

Shane · 07-25-2009, 03:30 PM

I think this is what Ron is talking about in post #7....looks like a trip to a good alum welding shop is in order.

ahedmonds · 07-25-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbentzel

Well here's the damage. The question is how do I successfully repair it? Ideas?

Try this link....been addressed before....Good luck with it!

Trans issue, need suggestions

Next time I come down to your area I may contact you about a visit

Herb

kbentzel · 07-25-2009, 05:32 PM

Thanks Herb, I knew I had seen it somewhere, just didn't find it.

BigBlue · 07-26-2009, 08:58 PM

I see several comments regarding darkening of the clutch fluid and this has puzzled me on my car from day one. Since both MC and slave were brand new it is unlikely to be deteriorating seals. All three MC's are the same and the two brake reservoirs are quite clear. So what is the explanation for the dark clutch fluid?

kbentzel · 07-26-2009, 09:17 PM

It has to be the slave cylinder or heat. What else could it be?

crash · 07-27-2009, 02:53 PM

It may have to do with the fact that it is the clutch MC and possibly that the MC bore is a little rough. Remember, the clutch MC piston moves many times further with each stroke as compared to the brake MCs. This long throw combined with an imperfect bore surface may lead to more rapid seal deterioration.

jdpanero · 08-03-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash

It may have to do with the fact that it is the clutch MC and possibly that the MC bore is a little rough. Remember, the clutch MC piston moves many times further with each stroke as compared to the brake MCs. This long throw combined with an imperfect bore surface may lead to more rapid seal deterioration.

But I've only got a few hundred miles on the car, so I wouldn't think that would be it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbentzel

It has to be the slave cylinder or heat. What else could it be?

I would think the heat in the front brake MC would be the hottest, but I haven't checked temps.

jdpanero · 08-03-2009, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash

With all due respect, a bolt on the firewall is usually as good as worthless due to how thin the firewall material is. There is a two piece stop that goes on the MC and is adjustable. I don't know where I got them, I may have even made them many moons ago, but I have a few on the shelf. If I get a chance, I'll get a pic of the setup.

Actually, I just got done tapping the firewall for a 3/8" bolt to act as the clutch stop. I tapped the powdercoated steel section of where the pedal box mounts to the frame, which is above the thin aluminum. The steel section is more than stout enough and the stop works as expected.

**Also, this is at the top of my must do mods. ** I don't want to: 1. get stranded 2. pull my high dollar gearbox out of my painted car 3. send it out for a $800 repair 4. then put it back together.

kbentzel · 08-03-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

**Also, this is at the top of my must do mods. ** I don't want to: 1. get stranded 2. pull my high dollar gearbox out of my painted car 3. send it out for a $800 repair 4. then put it back together.

Amen to that! Got strainded, Pulled the box, Waiting for the repair, Not looking forward to the install, And worst of all I want to be driving!

I'd like to see a pic of your solution.

divejunky · 08-03-2009, 12:27 PM

Are you running the updated Shaft W/bronze bushings & fork vs the needle bearings??
Gary

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbentzel

Went on a test drive tonight looking for some twisties....boy that's fun...anyway pushed in the clutch, foot goes to the floor, uh oh! Found 5th made it within one traffic light of the house when my luck ran out. I finally got her home but I'm not sure what happened. Somehow the slave is no longer engaged with the fork or the fork fell off and the wierd thing is the fluid in the master cylinder went dark alomost black. Any ideas what happened? I'll post again when I figure it out.
Keith

kbentzel · 08-03-2009, 02:01 PM

I will be since some of the needle bearings escaped during the failure. Why do you ask?

crash · 08-03-2009, 03:11 PM

Here's a pic of the parts that I made up for a clutch stop. What is not in the picture is a small round threaded piece that screws onto the shaft and is locked by another half nut to the pedal end of the assembly.

jdpanero · 08-05-2009, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbentzel

I'd like to see a pic of your solution.

1. Jamnut is obviously not tightened.

2. You might not believe it, but when I adjusted the bolt out to where it needed to be, I'm fairly confident it reduced over 50% of the clutch travel.