Cobra 302: I installed the SAI mod on my Coupe which has the pole position upper control arms and my instructions said to flip the control arms from left to right due to the angle of the ball joint and possible binding issues under braking. In looking at your pictures the outer end of you ball joint looks like mine where the ball joint goes through at an angle. You can test this by taking the shocks off and jacking the wheel up and down. Not sure what brake set up you are using but another thing you need to look at is when under full compression turn the wheels left and right and make sure it does not sheer the bleeder screw off. It's been a long time since I did mine and if you have flipped the UCA you have it ok.
HTH
CB
Cobra 302: I installed the SAI mod on my Coupe which has the pole position upper control arms and my instructions said to flip the control arms from left to right due to the angle of the ball joint and possible binding issues under braking. In looking at your pictures the outer end of you ball joint looks like mine where the ball joint goes through at an angle. You can test this by taking the shocks off and jacking the wheel up and down. Not sure what brake set up you are using but another thing you need to look at is when under full compression turn the wheels left and right and make sure it does not sheer the bleeder screw off. It's been a long time since I did mine and if you have flipped the UCA you have it ok.
HTH
CB
I did not flip the control arms, I seen some old posts that said it was not really necessary.
I don't understand flipping them, aren't they the same? The bleeder does come close at full turn fully drooped. What is the fix? I flipped the bolt to have the nut on the top.
I removed the upper bolt on the shock and ran the assembly completely up , didn't see any binding.
I didn't flip mine either. I can't figure out what difference it would make. Your setup looks good to me. Just re-align. It looks like you have 5 degrees of negative camber.
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Your first photo in post #2...it looks like the bolt is not long enough to fully engage the nylock portion of the nut. What's up?
Jeff
Two nuts. First has about an inch of extra threads. I replaced all the bolts with longer grade 8 ones. I felt the ones that came with the kit were to short.
Cobra 302: What I said to you were the install instuctions that I got with my SAI kit from Whitbys. I assume they did this for a reason. If you look at the geometry you have lowered the inner attachment point of the UCA but the ball joint still goes through the outer end at an angle which could cause a binding problem as the wheel moves upward under hard braking or high G cornering. You might try contacting Whtby's (Advitersiers link above, Install instuctions are provided), you can also call them and discuss your install.
Adding the SAI to my Coupe made a big improvement, best $$ I spent to improve the handling.
HTH
CB
Cobra 302: What I said to you were the install instuctions that I got with my SAI kit from Whitbys. I assume they did this for a reason. If you look at the geometry you have lowered the inner attachment point of the UCA but the ball joint still goes through the outer end at an angle which could cause a binding problem as the wheel moves upward under hard braking or high G cornering. You might try contacting Whtby's (Advitersiers link above, Install instuctions are provided), you can also call them and discuss your install.
Adding the SAI to my Coupe made a big improvement, best $$ I spent to improve the handling.
HTH
CB
Thanks for the advise. I will call them. I need to make sure the bleeder screw doesn't hit the UCA. I am setting up the alignment now.
... If you look at the geometry you have lowered the inner attachment point of the UCA but the ball joint still goes through the outer end at an angle which could cause a binding problem as the wheel moves upward under hard braking or high G cornering...
I have the same, older, Pole Position UCAs and I did flip mine as per the instructions mostly because the instructions told me too but also because I used the same simple reasoning provided by CB above. The UCA mounting point has moved down over an inch and if you assume the travel radius of the ball joint end was correct before SAI mod, reversing the angle of the ball joint plates seems to provide more travel range after lowering the mounting point, particularly under compression. At least that's the way my simple mind understands it.
I do remember Dave Borden mentioning though, if you can't replicate any binding issues while moving it through your 3" +/- suspension travel arc you don't really need to be concerned.
Sean
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Canuk1: You have explaned it better then I did. I taught physics for 33 years and know a bit about angle changes. I never thought of explaining it that way. Your explaination of the upward motion of the outer end of the UCA makes it very clear. This is what I was thinking about when I responded.
Your simple mind works great!!
Good job :
CB
Cobra 302,
I have a gen 1 coupe and I eventually flipped my upper. It didn't make much sense to me in the beginning, but after flipping it I could see some difference in the space between the adjuster sleeves to coil. I used a mag mount caste/camber gage and I have turn plates for true initial setup. I was able to get the suspension fairly close but "no-cigar" compared to a computer alignment.
After a good computer alignment, the number of threads on either end of the adjusting sleeves were almost equal side to side.
I'd seriously consider a bump steer kit. You will need that. Some say no but from experience, I wouldn't hesitate.
With a coupe of good dial indicators and some 1/2" square tubing and a welder, I made my own bump steer stand, just to say I made this, plus its accurate. I have zero bump steer 1"up and 1" down. Any further movement than that I'd have to go back to my notes. It gets progressively worse after about 1.75" up or down.
Jeff W
Cobra 302,
I have a gen 1 coupe and I eventually flipped my upper. It didn't make much sense to me in the beginning, but after flipping it I could see some difference in the space between the adjuster sleeves to coil. I used a mag mount caste/camber gage and I have turn plates for true initial setup. I was able to get the suspension fairly close but "no-cigar" compared to a computer alignment.
After a good computer alignment, the number of threads on either end of the adjusting sleeves were almost equal side to side.
I'd seriously consider a bump steer kit. You will need that. Some say no but from experience, I wouldn't hesitate.
With a coupe of good dial indicators and some 1/2" square tubing and a welder, I made my own bump steer stand, just to say I made this, plus its accurate. I have zero bump steer 1"up and 1" down. Any further movement than that I'd have to go back to my notes. It gets progressively worse after about 1.75" up or down.
Jeff W
I have a BBk bump steer kit installed, works great.
I would think the settings didn't change after installing the SAI kit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE
Mine was just as close I added the steering rack limiters (travel limiters).
I have some from Breeze that I never installed, going to today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE
He has one, that is what the blue sleeved outer tie rod end is 2nd post pics. I have same one he may or may not need to adjust it.
I would think no adjustment would be needed. The point is to keep the LCA parrellel with the the steering.I don't think that has changed. I also have the offset solid steering rack mounts, it helps keep the rack lower letting LCA and rack be at the same angle.
I would think no adjustment would be needed. The point is to keep the LCA parrellel with the the steering.I don't think that has changed. I also have the offset solid steering rack mounts, it helps keep the rack lower letting LCA and rack be at the same angle.
This might not be right but this is how I set mine. I figured out where my LCA is in relation to the frame with the weight of the car on it. Then lifted the front end and removed the shocks. I used my floor jack to lift the LCA and spindle up to that relative position.
I then moved the LCA/spindle up and down about 2" of travel, I have 700lb springs, and checked the amount of deflection the rotor made while in this travel area. There isn't supposed to be any. The rotor should stay flat through the travel, if it toes in or out in the travel change the position of the outer tie rod relative to the spindle mounting until you have LCA travel through the range with out any toe in or out of the rotor.
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Cobra 302: Me again. You have moved the upper pivot point of your front suspension outward under the rim of the wheel. I think you need to check your bumpsteer as the wheel moves up and down. My guess is it will toe in under compression (angle between the center line of the ball joints has changed) but you need to check to be sure. If it's close you are ok but you do not want your car to toe out under acceleration then switch to toe in under braking.
Your car looks great and will corner and brake like crazy if you get this set up correct.
Keep us posted:
HTH
CB
I would also check bumpsteer. On my car it looks to me that the spindle actually moves forward at the top. The balljoint, from side view is about the same but the spindle is more vertical. So, a the spindle rotates, the end of the steering arm moves lower too.
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So do I understand this correctly....You take your left side control arm, flip it upside down and then switch it to the right side and visa-verse? Cause I don't get how just switching sides would do anything. From what I read on other posts you are supposed to not simply switch sides, but to flip them first before switching sides. correct?
BTW Myn old tires never wore unevenly. matter of fact they wore pretty darn evenly. Now with this SAI kit how will the camber shown in the above pictures wear my tires?
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Last edited by Cobra Cory; 08-06-2012 at 12:33 PM..
Cobra Cory: All of this flipping has to do with the angle of the ball joint as it passes throught the outer mounting point. If you look at the ball joint in the stock position you will notice this angle, which points the center line of the ball joint outward. This can create binding problems under upward movement of the UCA. The key to this is when you flip the control arms you have to remove the ball joint and screw it in the other side of the UCA. This creates a more room for upward motion before binding occurs. It may bind a bit when jacked up but the weight is not on the car.
HTH
CB
Cobra 302: With that range of upward motion you shoud be good to go.
Go fast have fun:
CB
I really want to.
I was playing with the fasttrax.
I have noticed the biggest problem is getting the gage to be repeatable.
I put it down and zero it. Then I pick it up and place it in the same location I am no longer at zero. I think the cement floor has to many tiny imperfections. I am going to lower the tire on a sheet of metal and zero the gage that way.
What you need is something that allows the front tires to slide a bit outward. I think Wade Chamberland suggested it. Take a couple of garbage bags and fold them over so you have a slippy surface between your tire and a flat clean floor, waxed paper was also mentioned. If you want to take the trouble you can use a couple of sheet of Plexi glass with grease between them. If you also want to check caster try this. go to google and type the following: site:ffcars.com how to make turn plates. Or http://www.arkansapointiacs.org/tech...urnplates.html
Not sure this will work since it's been awhile since I found it.
HTH
CB
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but also because I used the same simple reasoning provided by CB above. The UCA mounting point has moved down over an inch and if you assume the travel radius of the ball joint end was correct before SAI mod, reversing the angle of the ball joint plates seems to provide more travel range after lowering the mounting point, particularly under compression. At least that's the way my simple mind understands it.
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