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Old 04-23-2011, 09:55 PM   #1 (permalink)
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New tires

I finally pulled the triger and ordered some track tires. These are not the norm, but got some great reviews. One guy pulled 1.8G's on these so should be much better than what I have been on. My car is coming around but needs more grip. I was close to the A6's but was concerned how quickly some people go through $1200 worth of tires.

here is what I am going to: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....4C71&tab=Sizes
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Ok looks like FFcars has some sort of spyware installed and won't do the tirerack link.

I bought the Hankook Ventus Z214 C71 in 275/40 R17

A couple of reviews:

I only have one Divisional autocross, with two drivers, on the tires so far, but I'm pretty dazzled. Much better braking than the A6 Hoosier, I think as good of steering response, maybe slightly less grip, and much more tolerant of heat than the Hoosier. Dramatically better in every way for my driving style than the Kumho Ecsta V710. They don't show any scary wear after the one (two day) event, and Hoosiers on that site definitely show wear after 24 runs. I'm very impressed. They do take considerably more pressure than what I ran in the Hoosier or the Kumhos. The Hankooks are the first tire I have run on our Miata R that took more than a one pound pressure difference between the front and rear, and I have been autocrossing this car off and on since the Yokohama A008RS was the hot tire. From the tire pyrometer data, I have to disagree with the review I read saying the Hankooks needed much more camber, the temperature spreads were quite consistant with what I get from the Hoosier A6s, at least on our E Stock Miata (but again, at 11 psi more in the front, 5 psi more in the rear). I rolled the dice on the Hankooks largely because of price (the 14" diameters are very reasonable) and because I knew I didn't like the Kumhos (which lasted pretty well), and the Hoosiers didn't last at all on our surface. I will probably buy Hankooks for my other autocross car <truck, actually...> next, at least based on my first impression of the Hankooks.

__________________________________________________ __________________________
A season of 80 autocross runs on these tires and they're still great! Just now starting to show wear in one of the tread grooves. Going to flip them inside out and go again next season. They heat up fast and are fairly easy to maintain. Much cheaper than the Hoosiers or Kumhos in similar sizing and I think just as good. Last much longer than Hoosiers and better grip than Kumhos, so even better value.
The shoulder is a little more square than Hoosiers and definately more than Kumhos, but still easy enough to maintain.
I cannot praise these tires enough. They're lasting FOREVER and I have not been nice to them! I will MOST CERTAINLY buy more if the time ever comes

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Race track use only. I have had three sets, two of C51 and one of C71. I use the C71s on cold days as cold as they are here in CA. I have tried heat cycling with bad results. You just lose the great grip of the first 5 laps. My first set I compared to Hoosier R6 in the same size on the same size wheel. Depending upon the track they are 1 - 2 seconds faster than the Hoosier. They also don't fade after 20 minutes of flat out driving. The first 5 laps are fabulous, I couldn't adjust my confidence fast enough to use the increased grip with the first set. After the first 5 laps they are merely great, consistent, fast. They continue like this with minor degradation as the heat cycles build up, unlike Hoosiers. In my use, I would never heat cycle these tires if I can afford a new set for qualifying and race. I have tried heat cycling with Hoosiers and don't understand how this improves them. Maybe they are more consistent but they still fall off at the 20 minute mark
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Those look like a good value in a soft compound. I think you are really gonna like the extra grip of a R compound. Have fun and don't forget to let us know what you think after you run them.
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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A shame they only go to 275 width.We need at least 315.
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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A lot of high level time attack guys use this tire compound. Very sticky.
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Old 04-24-2011, 09:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I will let you guys know. Good to keep hearing good things about my selection.

I am wondering if the extra heat in the 275 size will offset the smaller footprint. My 315 Kuhmo XS's never really heated up even when pushed hard. Hankook says optimal grip is achieved between 180-200 degrees. I don't think i would ever get a 315 that warm in autocross.
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Old 04-24-2011, 09:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure you're never going to get heat in a tire in 60 seconds of driving an autocross course. Seems to me you need a tire with grip from air temp to end of run. Just my .02 worth. Hope they work out.
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Old 04-24-2011, 10:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
I will let you guys know. Good to keep hearing good things about my selection.

I am wondering if the extra heat in the 275 size will offset the smaller footprint. My 315 Kuhmo XS's never really heated up even when pushed hard. Hankook says optimal grip is achieved between 180-200 degrees. I don't think i would ever get a 315 that warm in autocross.
I am actually going to try the "sqaure" setup with 275 A6 on all four corners at the TnT prior to the Atlanta National Tour. With a co-driver I was able to get some heat in the 275/315 setup but with a single driver it just doesn't happen. If the car seems to really be unhappy I'll have the 315's ready to go.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:46 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Venom View Post
I'm pretty sure you're never going to get heat in a tire in 60 seconds of driving an autocross course. Seems to me you need a tire with grip from air temp to end of run. Just my .02 worth. Hope they work out.
Tim actually the in the summer the folks that run R comps have to spray the tires after a couple of runs to keep from overheating them. The hoosiers are less tolerant of heat than the kumhos. They both get greasy if you don't spray on a hot track.
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I took a close look at those. The only reason I passed themup is because they're directional; you can't rotate them side to side. On a lot of tracks, that's a problem.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:30 AM   #11 (permalink)
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In auto X my R6s and V710 were completely overheated by the 4th run. My tires were in the sweet spot 2nd and 3rd. My ET reflected that. RR is harder to get the temps up, but Auto X I seem to be battling the opposite problem.
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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In summer, yes, I get how tires can get hot. I'm curious how on a cool 50 - 60 degree day, you run one 60 second run how you get heat in the tires?
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You would be surprised. When the temps are in 50-60 range, it takes a little longer but with still reach tire operating temperatures. My tire traction shifts one run. If its in the high 80s or 90s sometimes the third run turns to garbage. I dont have the tire sprayer though, I dont AutoX enough to by one.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Hmm, interesting. Anyone have the infrared temp guage to test this out?
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Tim I used one last race on my hard RR tires. Highest temp I saw was 117 degrees, but those tires were very slick and made for a longer endurance race. I may keep them to try at Putnam sometime.

I think the thing that is hard to wrap your mind around is the amount of grip with the soft compound tires. Grip is caused by friction. That same friction causes heat. The other issue is the soft compounds do not like the heat levels of harder tires. I have been told by one experienced racer that 120 degrees is max on the A6. Many harder compounds will take over 200 degrees before overheating. I now see why tire selection is so important for professional racers.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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So, if grip is at it's max on a 90 degree+ day without even moving, you spray them down, I get that, but if the max grip isn't until 120 degrees on a 50 - 60 degree day, you have a lot of temp to make up in 60 seconds, and even then, your max grip wouldn't be at the start, it would be towards mid to end run, right? Also, if friction is your friend, and you depend on that to create grip, how do you create friction on a green surface if you're one of the first 20 cars on the course? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around getting max grip from start to finish in 60 seconds.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:57 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I am just guessing here, but the cold grip of an A6 is probably on par or better than an at temp R6 simply due to the softer compound. As Trevor said the sweet spot on temps for the soft compound tires is very narrow. I have ridden in a Miata with A6's and while the car had no guts the handling was incredible.

Kind of like the pro drivers. They start a race under cloudy conditions and the car is great, then the sun comes out and their handling goes in the crapper. I even hear the rally guys saying how awful of a decision they made with tires.

Trevor also pointed out that run 1 (cold) was slower than run 2-3 (warm) and then run 4 was crap because the tires were overheated. Many top autocrossers know when they are overheating and spray to control it.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:48 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Venom View Post
Hmm, interesting. Anyone have the infrared temp guage to test this out?
An infrared non-contact thermometer is useless. Surface temps change so rapidly that the information is false and misleading.

You need to use a probe type thermometer to find the temp of the rubber 1-2mm below the surface. I bought a used one off e-bay for about $50.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=2515

According to Hoosier, the proper temp of the A6 is 110-140* for autocross; and the R6 is 180-200* for road racing.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/pdf/warranty/HOOSIER.pdf

You divide the tire in thirds, and check the temp in each third. The temp spread and pattern is important, both for setting the proper temp, and making the proper suspension and alignment changes. It's a tricky business.

Your hot tire pressures are important, too. Each tire maker has it's own recommendations for that. The range is only about 3-4psi. But a change of 1 psi can make a big differance in lap times. Just think of running your street tires at 36 vs 40psi. If you don't have a pyrometer, you can use hot temps as a general guide.

http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=16
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:00 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Tire temp is why a lot of serious, uber competitive autocrossers have co-drivers. The co-driver is the "tire warmer", keeping heat in the rubber between the primary driver's runs.

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Old 04-26-2011, 11:24 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Ha Jeff
Jim and I used to do that years ago.
We would team run his car together at auto Xs . I was the warm up driver. I would make my run come in and change drivers and numbers in line for the next run. It worked great. He was always faster than Me. Or maybe cause he was smoother.
Nope lets just say it was cause he warm tires.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:29 AM   #21 (permalink)
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purple venom,
you have to take into account that the 5 runs are consecutive. You make a run, goto the back of the line, few minutes later make another run. So, the tires are "cold" on the first run. It is not really 60 secs. My first run looks like a have a blindfold on, Im all over the place.

Its like Bob says, the tire temps are not the surface, they are within the tread. Those point and shoot thermometers do not help much. The temperature data is nice to have but you can feel the tires when they are at temperature. I think temperatures across the tires are more helpful for optimizing suspension adjustments - that way you are using the maximum contact patch of the tire.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Makes sense now, thanks for being patient and getting it through my thick skull Hopefully i didn't derail the thread too much.

So, I mostly do road course stuff with Hoosier R6 slicks. I have found 2 or even 4lbs pressure make a huge difference. I'm not sure how warm the tires are based on the feedback above on the infrared thermometers, they feel warm to me, not hot when I come off the track. My question is, based on what you've said above, I should leave my street tires on (Bridgestone Potenza) if I come to an autocross event?
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:51 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Tim you know my opinion...don't care what you run as long as you come out and have fun!!!!!

My experience last race on road race rubber was not good. I think the R6 is softer than what I ran though. I think that if you can find a co-driver bring the R6's if you can't find a volunteer then bring the street tires. 2 driver cars don't spend alot of time in the pits.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:13 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
Ok looks like FFcars has some sort of spyware installed and won't do the tirerack link.

I bought the Hankook Ventus Z214 C71 in 275/40 R17

A couple of reviews:

I only have one Divisional autocross, with two drivers, on the tires so far, but I'm pretty dazzled. Much better braking than the A6 Hoosier, I think as good of steering response, maybe slightly less grip, and much more tolerant of heat than the Hoosier. Dramatically better in every way for my driving style than the Kumho Ecsta V710. They don't show any scary wear after the one (two day) event, and Hoosiers on that site definitely show wear after 24 runs. I'm very impressed. They do take considerably more pressure than what I ran in the Hoosier or the Kumhos. The Hankooks are the first tire I have run on our Miata R that took more than a one pound pressure difference between the front and rear, and I have been autocrossing this car off and on since the Yokohama A008RS was the hot tire. From the tire pyrometer data, I have to disagree with the review I read saying the Hankooks needed much more camber, the temperature spreads were quite consistant with what I get from the Hoosier A6s, at least on our E Stock Miata (but again, at 11 psi more in the front, 5 psi more in the rear). I rolled the dice on the Hankooks largely because of price (the 14" diameters are very reasonable) and because I knew I didn't like the Kumhos (which lasted pretty well), and the Hoosiers didn't last at all on our surface. I will probably buy Hankooks for my other autocross car <truck, actually...> next, at least based on my first impression of the Hankooks.

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A season of 80 autocross runs on these tires and they're still great! Just now starting to show wear in one of the tread grooves. Going to flip them inside out and go again next season. They heat up fast and are fairly easy to maintain. Much cheaper than the Hoosiers or Kumhos in similar sizing and I think just as good. Last much longer than Hoosiers and better grip than Kumhos, so even better value.
The shoulder is a little more square than Hoosiers and definately more than Kumhos, but still easy enough to maintain.
I cannot praise these tires enough. They're lasting FOREVER and I have not been nice to them! I will MOST CERTAINLY buy more if the time ever comes

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Race track use only. I have had three sets, two of C51 and one of C71. I use the C71s on cold days as cold as they are here in CA. I have tried heat cycling with bad results. You just lose the great grip of the first 5 laps. My first set I compared to Hoosier R6 in the same size on the same size wheel. Depending upon the track they are 1 - 2 seconds faster than the Hoosier. They also don't fade after 20 minutes of flat out driving. The first 5 laps are fabulous, I couldn't adjust my confidence fast enough to use the increased grip with the first set. After the first 5 laps they are merely great, consistent, fast. They continue like this with minor degradation as the heat cycles build up, unlike Hoosiers. In my use, I would never heat cycle these tires if I can afford a new set for qualifying and race. I have tried heat cycling with Hoosiers and don't understand how this improves them. Maybe they are more consistent but they still fall off at the 20 minute mark
Hi Mike,
I need to replace my rear 315 17 Kumhos. The front tires are Hankook 275/40 R17 on 9"
rims. The rear rim size is 10.5". What size rims are you using and it looks like you are running the Hankook 275/40 R17 on all 4 corners?
Our tire guy is suggesting dropping front to 245's and running 275's in the rear instead of staying 275s on all corners. He feels we would get a flatter contact patch based on the rim width and the stagger would help with turning. Any thoughts on this?


Thanks Frank
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Old 03-06-2013, 03:07 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Hi Mike,
I need to replace my rear 315 17 Kumhos. The front tires are Hankook 275/40 R17 on 9"
rims. The rear rim size is 10.5". What size rims are you using and it looks like you are running the Hankook 275/40 R17 on all 4 corners?
Our tire guy is suggesting dropping front to 245's and running 275's in the rear instead of staying 275s on all corners. He feels we would get a flatter contact patch based on the rim width and the stagger would help with turning. Any thoughts on this?


Thanks Frank
Frank my experience with the Hankooks has been on par with the reviews. They have done very well on my Coupe.

Here is the good and bad:
1. Hot track - they love it and have never overheated. 1 lap when cold they are a little slick and continue to get better with heat and never fall off due to overheating.

2. Wet - they were awesome on a wet track. Far better than my Kumho XS's I ran the previous rain race. Of course they would not deal with standing water any better than any slick. Ths was my 1st time running a slick in the rain so I have no idea if an A6 is better, but I did beat my competition on A6's.

3. Cold track - they were really bad. I had little traction when running in the 30-40 degree range at a national event. On day 2 the temps got up to near 50 degrees and they started to come around.

4. Wear - they wear like iron. My last local event of the 2012 season was warm 80 ish and the tires had around 130 runs on them. That event was my fastest ever! There is still plenty of rubber left on them and I will end up running them for a 3rd season.

Run with 130 runs on the tires:

Run when new (about 20 runs on them):

5. The bad: This not the tires fault but I have still not figured out the oversteer issues with my car. Due to this I have to abandon the 275F/275r setup. For 2013 I will be running a 275F (Hankook) and 315R (Nitto NT01) setup. I looked at some data from a friend that went from NT01's to A6's back to NT01's and he was faster on the new NT01's than the A6 with a bunch of heatcycles. IMO if you need a 275/315 setup then the NT01 (they wear as good as the hankooks but stay soft when cold) is the ticket. If you can do a 275/275 or 245/275 setup then go with the Hankooks. If you have a $2,600 per year tire budget (2 sets) then the A6 is a great option. Edit: my 275's were mounted on a stock 9" rim and I will put the 315 Nitto's on a 10.5" rim.

Conclusion: The Hankook, while maybe not as fast as the A6 out of the box, are a great cost effective option. After about 5-8 events they are every bit as good as the heat cycled A6's...IMO. If you can stay away from the cold they are great. They like low 20's when new but as the mile racked up my best runs were between 27-30 psi. It does take a couple of heat cycles to get really good when new.

That is it, but please ask any pointed questions you may have about something I missed.

Here is a video of how they do when over driven (notice the hard launch with no wheel spin from my 400 hp LS1):
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FFR Coupe #340, 2003 LS1 350 RWHP, T56 6 speed, QT BH, Champ 10.5 QT pan, 5 Lug and AC, SAI mod, Nitto NT-01's 275/315 ..Licensed for 28k..Just over 30k w/race tires and many mods
http://s464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/mmarshall01/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHtx7...1&feature=plcp
Build started - 8 Apr 2008
1st Autocross - 18 Oct. 2009 XP Class
2011, 2012, and 2013 St Louis region XP Champion

Last edited by mmarshall; 03-06-2013 at 04:09 AM..
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:35 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I did a test using an infrared non-contact thermometer and a probe type thermometer at the same time using two people. If the temps were taken quickly without a lengthy slow entrance into the pits and the tires were up to full temp the reading were basically the same. The test was done at Willow Springs which has a short fast entrance into the pits. But if it took a little while to take the temps the surface cooled faster than the core.

Bill Lomenick
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I got a set of the New Dunlops Direzza Z2's have not seen much info on them but reported to be better than the Star Spec Z1 and look good will see, they do not have the wide size most run but I only have 8" rim so that limits me anyway.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Thanks for info all. I will be going with Hankooks, but have not decided on 275 all around or 245 front and 275 back. I have power steering and maybe going from 275 front to 245 i can get a quicker turn-in. In the past i have had trouble in tight corner with the power steering not keeping up. What do you all think?

Frank
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Talking

FYI for Auto-X guys. Refering to rim width vs tire width and cornering grip. I read a thread a while back posted by Dave Borden that got me thinking about the flatness of the tire when cornering. If memory serves me corrct he recommend a slightly narrower tire then the rim spec called for. I'm assuming his theory was related to the side wall angle under agressive cornering. The slight outward angle produced by this combo makes the tire surface flatter as the car corners. You will get a little less grip in a straight line due to the reduction in tread width but Auto-X is all about turns. Makes a lot of sense to me. Perhaps he will chime in on this one.

MMarshal, link worked for me, these look like a nice cost alternative to Hoosier A6 which I currently run and I do agree they are a very temp. sensitive tire. Keep the feed back coming I'm interest in these tires.
Nice thread:
CB
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:13 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstanovich View Post
Thanks for info all. I will be going with Hankooks, but have not decided on 275 all around or 245 front and 275 back. I have power steering and maybe going from 275 front to 245 i can get a quicker turn-in. In the past i have had trouble in tight corner with the power steering not keeping up. What do you all think?

Frank
Frank I think the size decision depends on the balance of your car. What do you run for sizes now? With those sizes where is the balance? Over, under, or neutral??? Going to slicks won't change the balance much if at all. If you have any balance issues, now is the time to try fixing them with a different tire size/ratio. For my coupe the 275F/275R setup did not work.

Like CB said they are a good low cost alternative to the A6. The initial price difference is only a small part of the cost. The Hankooks stay sticky 3-4 times longer than the A6. IMO this makes them a bargain.

Here is the tire I will be running on the rear this season: 315/35-17 Nitto NT-01 Tires I sure wish they made the Hankook in a 315!
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FFR Coupe #340, 2003 LS1 350 RWHP, T56 6 speed, QT BH, Champ 10.5 QT pan, 5 Lug and AC, SAI mod, Nitto NT-01's 275/315 ..Licensed for 28k..Just over 30k w/race tires and many mods
http://s464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/mmarshall01/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHtx7...1&feature=plcp
Build started - 8 Apr 2008
1st Autocross - 18 Oct. 2009 XP Class
2011, 2012, and 2013 St Louis region XP Champion

Last edited by mmarshall; 03-12-2013 at 12:29 AM..
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