If we are required to be drive clean tested I'm pretty sure I'll fail
Angus
Section 6 of this Regulation applies with respect to every motor vehicle operating in Ontario. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 3 (3).
(2) This Regulation applies with respect to every motor vehicle operating in Ontario for which a permit under the Highway Traffic Act is in effect. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 3 (2).
(3) This Regulation, other than sections 8, 9, 9.0.1 and 11, applies with respect to every heavy vehicle. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 3 (3); O. Reg. 343/01, s. 4; O. Reg. 191/10, s. 5 (1).
Note: On January 1, 2013, subsection (3) is amended by striking out “sections 8, 9, 9.0.1 and 11” and substituting “sections 8, 9.0.1 and 11”. See: O. Reg. 191/10, ss. 5 (2), 12 (2).
Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods
4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.
(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.
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New build, 347 stroker, IRS and AOD
I'm no expert on this but if you bought a crate engine then is the builder of that engine the "manufacturer"? If so, and they didn't include any pollution control equipment... ? See where I am going?
From an American perspective, that would be a loophole. A factory block would require all the stuff as sold with the car from the dealer's lot, an aftermarket block, nada. It would resurrect a lot of older blocks by sleeving the bores and getting them on the road again, too.
Of course, your mileage may vary by the interpretation of the authority having jurisdiction. That concept doesn't seem to recognize any international boundaries.
I've been trying to digest this information for the past few weeks, and am worried about what I think is the case. From what I can tell, there are two balls in play.
On the one hand, kit cars are exempt from Ontario Drive Clean emissions testing for the purposes of vehicle registration and permitting as set out in the Highway Traffic Act and Regulations (i.e., renewing your plate stickers, buying or selling the car).
But on the other hand, kit cars are required to meet Drive Clean emissions standards based on the year of the engine, as set out in the Environmental Protection Act and Regulations. In this case "year of the engine" means the year the engine was purchased/installed, not the year/casting date of the block.
In the past couple years the Ministry of the Environment's Smog Patrol has begun targeting classic car shows and cruise-ins, to enforce emissions regulations with all kinds of hobby cars, incl. kits. The Smog Patrol seems to have some pretty broad powers and can be rather overzealous. I know of some guys who have had problems with them.
I'm not really sure yet what's fact and what's urban legend but, if I'm honest, the whole situation does have me a bit worried.
This will totally suck if it applies as it appears. That would mean I would have to somehow fit catalytic converters (is that even possible?) and run an air pump.
This is the problem when we elect a bunch of Commie's, TWICE!! even. I guess you know where I stand! I have paid (as many other have) millions of dollars in taxes to the various Canadian governments over the years and all they have done is harm, yet Canadians just roll over and take it. I can't figure it out. Sorry for the rant. Scott
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FFR #3870 MK II, Spectra Blue/Arctic White, 1974 351W, 9.75/1, Performer RPM 2.02 heads & intake, QFT SS-650, Comp 442, Crane roller top end, Canton pan, BBK headers, Lobak and CC inserts, Crane ignition, HD T5, 3.55 gears, 3 link, Tubular LCA's, Heim joints & VPM F/R bars, Power steering with Hiedts valve, Power brakes, Fortes bump steer kit, 5 bolt axels, SSBC rear brakes, Oil cooler, Pusher fans, Hlibrant Cobra III's with Nitto 555 275/245/17
This will totally suck if it applies as it appears. That would mean I would have to somehow fit catalytic converters (is that even possible?) and run an air pump.
If Massachusetts would only require cats and air pump we would be jumping for joy.
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MKIII 5446 Picked up May 06 - Completed May 07.
5.0 EFI-T5- BBK shorties, Edelbrock performer, underdrive pulleys. PS-PB
MK3.1 6707 Picked up July 9,2008 completed May 2009-sold 10/22/09
MKIV ordered 3/5/2010 delivery 4/16/2010 First start 4/29/10 complete 8/23/2010 sold 11/23/2010
"Some people stand around talking about why it can't be done, while others are doing it"
So far nothing has changed, I just re-upped my plates for 2 years and an e-test was not required.
FYI cats can be fit if you have j-pipes and some cash; Factory Five sells j-pipes with cats welded in. I decided to go that route to clear up some of the smell and bring the noise down to a level that doesn't cause my ears to ring. I dynoed with and without and the cats only cost 1-2 hp over the RPM band.
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Mk III 5035, 3-link with 302. Ottawa, ON
Good point, I'm not running the air pump with the cats so technically I don't have all of the factory smog equipment from the '88. You'd probably also need to look at fuel tuning and maybe cam timing if you actually had to pass the test. The other problem is that though my donor was an '88, technically my Cobra was manufactured in 2007 (the year I licensed it); I believe the limits of the test are based on year of manufacture.
Jason
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Mk III 5035, 3-link with 302. Ottawa, ON
It's my understanding that the limits for a hummer is not the same as a civic. And both the hummer and the civic are given an allowance every year they age.
Anyone know how far off base I am with this?
What is my 408 ffr based on?
I wouldn't worry about the air pump, they will want to see the obd results.
The actual check light must be functional.
So according to the environmental protection act I have to have all of the original equipment but the highway traffic act says I don't have to have a test to get my plate sticker...
Is that what I'm reading?
Environmental protection act:
Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods
4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.
Highway Traffic Act:
(2.1) Unless an emissions inspection report required under clause (1) (b) or (c) has been issued in respect of a motor vehicle, evidence of validation shall not be furnished for the motor vehicle where,
(a) any of clauses (2) (a) to (g) applies to the motor vehicle; and
(b) an emissions inspection report would be required under section 8.1 or 8.2. O. Reg. 691/00, s. 2 (2); O. Reg. 423/03, s. 1 (2).
(3) Clause (1) (a) does not apply in respect of a motor assisted bicycle. O. Reg. 540/98, s. 2 (2).
(4) Clause (1) (b) does not apply in respect of,
(a) a motor vehicle the model year of which is 1987 or older;
(b) a current model year motor vehicle or a future model year motor vehicle;
(c) a motorcycle or a motor assisted bicycle;
(d) a vehicle to which paragraph 2 of subsection 19 (1) applies;
(e) any motor vehicle that does not use an internal combustion engine as its source of power;
(f) a kit car;
(g) a hybrid vehicle; or
(h) an historic vehicle. O. Reg. 540/98, s. 2 (2); O. Reg. 654/98, s. 2 (2); O. Reg. 299/99, s. 1 (2); O. Reg. 691/00, s. 2 (3); O. Reg. 353/01, s. 2 (3); O. Reg. 183/05, s. 2 (1); O. Reg. 588/05, s. 1; O. Reg. 188/11, s. 1 (1).
So according to the environmental protection act I have to have all of the original equipment but the highway traffic act says I don't have to have a test to get my plate sticker...
Is that what I'm reading?
I think so. See what I wrote in post #4.
But I'm no expert in this, and there are a lot of things that seem unclear to me.
I can live with that.
I'll simply have to stay out of Canadian car shows!
I see the odd environment vehicle around but I haven't noticed one with lights. If the vehicle doesn't say police on the side of it I'm going to have to assume the driver is trying to kill me and make use of my 500hp to save myself.
For a while I was reading into the issue, thinking I'd need to pass an etest. That might not be fun depending on what gauge would be set as a base.
So far nothing has changed, I just re-upped my plates for 2 years and an e-test was not required.
FYI cats can be fit if you have j-pipes and some cash; Factory Five sells j-pipes with cats welded in. I decided to go that route to clear up some of the smell and bring the noise down to a level that doesn't cause my ears to ring. I dynoed with and without and the cats only cost 1-2 hp over the RPM band.
When we moved to Ottawa in 2008, the emission testing station at the Oil Changer on Innes made me a photo copy of the Highway Traffic Act to carry with me so I could prove that we don't need testing has somethine changed since then. There doesn't appear to be an amendment to that para.
They never mentioned the Environmental Protection Act for emission control equipment on kit cars, so I assumed it didn't apply. As I read it for the first time in detail here, it appears to me to be a non-statement.
"all of the original pollution control systems...included...with the motor...or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor"
They seem to be trying to link the motor to the kit car, which is silly, and from our perspective leaving it up to the manufacture of the motor is a good thing, unless you're using a donor perhaps. Although this could degrade into a similar type of arguement as what constitues a professional builder. Remember that?
Imagine the discussion here...As an engine builder Gordon Levy uses reconditioned Ford blocks so they would need smog gear, but "Bob" at World Products builds and engine with a block cast that is their own so not in their case? And does builder = manufacturer?
The problem will be that it's never form our perspective and you'll be faced with a mindless bureaucrat that is trying to apply an act in reality without any thought. Plus, we don't actually know what the intent of this part of the act actually was when it was drafted.
It "can" be read to contradict the Highway Traffic Act on the same subject. I suspect a civil servant faced with a conflict will take the more conservative statement and/or the one that makes the gov't money.
Who has the Transport Ministeer as their MLA?
I'm almost looking forward to that conversation "when" it happens to me.
Perhaps another glass of Bordeaux will sort it out...
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MkIII 5787, Levy 408W, Holley 770, TKO600, VPM reinforced 3-Link, SAI, 4-wheel disks, T3s, full width roll bar, full bumpers, tan leather, wipers, washer, Whitby Top, heater, seat heat, FFMetal, Earl's Fresh Air, Russ' steering column, quiet pipes, Dark Water. (Sold)
MkI 2264, Stock donor build w/ 93 5.0 (Sold)
Last edited by John Casey; 08-08-2012 at 02:45 AM..
John: Did you register your kit as the year it was built in (as we are supposed to) or as a '65 Shelby Cobra? I have heard of guys doing that (although sounds very sketchy to me). Then testing would not apply.
Slord,
Testing doesn't apply. If its a kit it does not need the test.
If an environment guy walks up to your car at a car show and you don't have all you emissions equipment expect a fine.
Two different departments.
Oooooooooh! That clears up some confusion. So, as long as I don't care about showing the car should not be a problem? I may order the cats and use the smog pump from the donor anyway. Seems like the HP cost isn't much and one 'Stang nut told me those engines run better with that equipment installed anyway (since I am using the EFI).
So this means Angus should have no problem getting his car stickered.
I'm with John on this unless something has changed. I licensed in 2007 as a 2007 and have never had to pass an e-test. I've never heard of environment inspectors at car shows, I guess if one shows up I'll tell him I made the engine myself out of chicken wire and plaster of paris. And yes it does have the pollution equipment I mandated for it
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Mk III 5035, 3-link with 302. Ottawa, ON
I'm with John on this unless something has changed. I licensed in 2007 as a 2007 and have never had to pass an e-test. I've never heard of environment inspectors at car shows, I guess if one shows up I'll tell him I made the engine myself out of chicken wire and plaster of paris. And yes it does have the pollution equipment I mandated for it
Sounds pretty definitive ! Is the same true about mufflers ? ie. not required for safety inspection but can still get fined by a cop ?
John: Did you register your kit as the year it was built in (as we are supposed to) or as a '65 Shelby Cobra? I have heard of guys doing that (although sounds very sketchy to me). Then testing would not apply.
Proper VIN number issued by IBC and registered as a 2007.
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MkIII 5787, Levy 408W, Holley 770, TKO600, VPM reinforced 3-Link, SAI, 4-wheel disks, T3s, full width roll bar, full bumpers, tan leather, wipers, washer, Whitby Top, heater, seat heat, FFMetal, Earl's Fresh Air, Russ' steering column, quiet pipes, Dark Water. (Sold)
Sounds pretty definitive ! Is the same true about mufflers ? ie. not required for safety inspection but can still get fined by a cop ?
Cops do not have a calibrated ear, although I believe they can ticket you if they suspect you're too loud and make you go get checked by someone with the proper equipment.
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MkIII 5787, Levy 408W, Holley 770, TKO600, VPM reinforced 3-Link, SAI, 4-wheel disks, T3s, full width roll bar, full bumpers, tan leather, wipers, washer, Whitby Top, heater, seat heat, FFMetal, Earl's Fresh Air, Russ' steering column, quiet pipes, Dark Water. (Sold)
This whole thing is confusing and for now my car is registered and I have never seen an Environment guy at any thing I have intended. I think the only solution for me is to go take the car for a ride and then come home and have a cold beer.
It would seem however that the whole thing hinges around how the Ministry of the Environment defines "Engine Manufacturer"
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Paul
FFR Mark IV 7411 Picked up 04/08/11
3-link, SN95 spindles, rear discs
Engine: 302-385hp, T-5, 3.08
First go-cart 08/31/11
Body remounted 10/03/11
Registered as unplated 21/03/12
On the road in gel-coat 27/03/12
"Badges, Badges? We don't need no stinkin' Badges!"
Drive Clean requires most passenger cars, vans, light trucks (with a GVWR or GCWR of 4,500 kg or less) and sport utility vehicles registered in the Drive Clean program area (PDF) to get a test pass or conditional pass to renew the stickers on their licence plates.
Light-duty vehicles, beginning with 1988 models, require testing every two years once they reach a certain age. Beginning September 1, 2011, vehicles are tested when they are seven years old.
As a consumer-protection measure, an emissions test pass may be required when a used vehicle that is older than the current calendar year is sold. This test helps to ensure consumers do not purchase a vehicle with emissions problems.
Vehicles exempt from Drive Clean testing requirements:
- all hybrid vehicles (those powered by a combination of internal combustion engines and electric motors)
- vehicles manufactured before 1988
- vehicles currently designated as “Historic” under the Highway Traffic Act
- light-duty commercial farm vehicles
- kit cars
- motorcycles
I see this post has been dormant for a while read it with some interest
maybe for the canadian guys i can help shed some light
I have a kitcar and thats what has to be stated on the ownership or you will have a whole bunch of trouble
MOT has deemed kits cars in ontario to be emissions exempt i carry the letter from the mot with me at all times can post that letter here for those that might be interested in reading it
So as far as anybody from ministry of enviroment is concerned you can just tell them to move on
I attend all sorts of cars shows /events all over ontario and have never encountered one of these enviroment squids
my car is not a factory 5 car its a street legal sand rail but none the less its a kit car which is what this post deals with
my car has no windshield could run without the fenders shown in the picture as long as its not raining
the fender thing has been challenged in an ontario court and the judge dismissed the charge and also advised the charging police officer to stop hassling me
the most important point i want to bring forward is that .....it must say kit on ownership and stay away from the term homebuilt at all costs because that just opens up a whole other can of worms
this is mine 1188lbs with full tank of gas 187 hp @ 6800rpm 175ftlbs torque
12:21@116 mph 11:40@ 127mph on the bottle i like to think of it as my pro touring sandrail its a street legal gokart on steroids
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