MAC center and "new" law...

[josrodes]

I got my car registered this summer, after the April deadline, 87 donor, 1971 shortblock.

My 60 days of driving with the R sticker are about to expire, so I decided to finally deal with the elephant and scheduled an appointment at the Medford MAC center.

Today was the day, I talked to Paul over there, he made copies of all the papers and told me he had to check what to do in this case and that he was going to get back to me in about a week.

The only way he would move on was if the engine/heads/intake/carb transmission and rear end came of the same pre emissions vehicle(before 1972). In my case is a little of a Frankenstein, with a 71 block and everything on top of it from my 87 donor.

Wondering if someone else have been able to go through this part of the process after the April deadline.

Wondering if I will be able to get it legal, my feeling is that driving season is over, and that I will be able to drive for 60 days every 6 months.

Am I being too negative? What will new builders do in MA?

[steve_mk4]

Keep us informed. I'm interested in what they come back with. I had thought about going pre 72 driveline but decided it was too much of a hassle with the new law.

As for new builders (including myself) I think it's best if you just go with a full donor drivetrain. I am using a 90 mustang drivetrain (complete from engine to diff) and will have to have the emissions equipment that came with the car. In my case its really just the air pump and cats.

Good luck and I hope you can get it resolved without too much additional cost,
Steve

[Jon A]

A "Frankenstein" build is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get through under the new law. The good news is that there is now a clear path to registration. The bad news is that it limits new builders to donor builds (whether they be modern donors or old donors) and folks that started their builds before the new law was enacted but didn't get through the registration process in time or didn't modify their build plans to comply with the new law are in a difficult position.

Good luck!!

-Jon A.

[josrodes]

I still have my donor 87 engine, I had some issues with that originally and that's the main reason I missed the deadline, at which point and after some research, I got recommendations to buy an older block, with the idea that it was going to be ok after the deadline.

At the time, it seemed reasonable to me and I went ahead and purchased the 347 1971 shortblock from Mike Forte. I still have hope here, but its not under my control. So I need to start planning for the worse.

If this whole thing backfires, I will have to rebuild the 87 block, and swap it out, and get all the emissions components, and I should then be able to pass emissions, not ideal but still an option.

So, I need to start collecting emissions components, I think I have the EGR, smog tubes and smog pump, but I don't have the Jpipes with cats, or the canister, what else would I need if I have to go this route?

[steve_mk4]

I have a 90 donor and the list you have is all you should need plus all the vacuum relays (air pump, smog tubes/relays, charcoal canister, EGR, cats and O2 sensors). I'm sure you know this but fuel injection and computer will be needed as well.

Not sure if it's an option (maybe someone with more knowledge of the law can confirm) but maybe you can put the EFI and smog equipment on the engine you have? Not sure if the heads you have on the engine have smog tube ports but that "may" be an option.

[josrodes]

Just want to keep this going for those who might have questions of where this will end up, but so far it seems like it wont end up well.

I briefly spoke to Paul today, all he told me is that the commission referred him to the regulations document, and that he was going to mail a copy of that to me and once I was familiar with it, then we were going to talk again, this doesn't look good.

I'm assuming this is the document he will mail.

http://www.mass.gov/dep/service/regu...s/310cmr60.pdf

And these are the parts I believe apply.
60.02(3)(c) Effective beginning October 1, 2008, the following motor vehicles are exempt from the
emissions inspection:
60.02(3)(c)(7). any new vehicle registered first in Massachusetts for the motor vehicle inspection
upon its initial registration to the ultimate purchaser, except a kit vehicle;

60.02(5)(b)Initial Inspection of New Kit Vehicles. When any kit vehicle is first registered in
Massachusetts, including upon sale or lease to the ultimate purchaser or completion of
assembly, the registrant shall obtain a visual inspection in accordance with 310 CMR
60.02(12)(c). If the certified configuration installed in the kit vehicle is from a model year
vehicle subject to an OBD test, the kit vehicle shall also receive an OBD test for the model
year of the certified configuration installed in the kit vehicle.

60.02(8)(e) Kit Vehicles. Kit vehicles are subject to an emissions test based on the year of the
certified configuration installed in the kit vehicle:
1. if the certified configuration installed in the kit vehicle is from a model year vehicle
subject to an OBD test, then the kit vehicle shall be subject to the kit vehicle visual test
upon initial registration and to annual OBD testing requirements for the model year of
the certified configuration installed in the kit vehicle; or
2. if the certified configuration installed in the kit vehicle is from a model year vehicle
not subject to an OBD test, then the kit vehicle shall be subject to the kit vehicle visual
test upon initial registration and transfer of ownership.

60.02(12)(c) Kit Vehicle Visual Test. A kit vehicle shall be subject to a visual test to verify
compliance with the following emissions requirements; and kit vehicle registrants shall
supply any documentation required by the inspector, the Department, or the registry:
1. The components of the drivetrain (e.g., engine, transmission, and differential) shall
be exclusively or substantially used or rebuilt. Regardless of the combination of new and
used components, the engine shall be used, or used and rebuilt. The engine block and
cylinder head(s) shall be used; other components of the engine may be new. For
purposes of 310 CMR 60.02(12)(c), “used” means the component has been in a vehicle
that has been titled to an ultimate purchaser. For purposes of 310 CMR 60.02(12)(c), a
“rebuilt component” is defined as a used component which has been refurbished with
new or other used parts;
2. Kit vehicles shall have the same transmission configuration (i.e., manual, automatic,
semi-automatic, and number of forward gears) as the originally certified configuration,
and have an N/V ratio (speed of vehicle in miles per hour/speed of engine in revolutions
per minute) which matches the N/V ratio of the originally certified configuration within
3% in every gear;
3. All emissions-related components and settings shall conform in all material respects
to those of one previously certified configuration (all emissions-related components shall
match or be traceable to one previously certified configuration);
4. All catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, and charcoal canisters shall be new, original
equipment parts, or replacement parts equivalent to the original equipment parts;
5. If the originally certified configuration required unleaded fuel, then the vehicles shall
have fuel filler neck restrictors and unleaded fuel labels which meet the requirements of
40 CFR 80.24;
6. The vehicle weight of the kit configuration can be no more than 500 pounds greater
than the weight of the originally certified configuration; and
7. Each vehicle and its accompanying documentation shall be clearly labeled as to the
make, model year, chassis year, engine year, engine family, subfamily, and tune-up
specifications represented by the originally certified vehicle.

[josrodes]

I just received the mail from Paul at the Medford MAC.
Seems like we are going back to the same law we had in 1994.

Here is a link to the document he sent me:
EPA Kit Car Policy | Importing Vehicles and Engines | US EPA

I don't see a way here for me to use my 1971 block as the certified drive train, well it was fun while it lasted.

What was the trick people used to do before to drive 2 months every 6 months? Wondering if that would be an option.

[steve_mk4]

This may be "reaching" but here are my thoughts.
If you know what model car your 71 block came out of then find out what tranny and rear end options were available on that year/model (I suspect you could use any 71 car that come with your displacement). If you can find a match to the 87 mustang driveline specs (gear ratio's/diff ratio) then you may have a case to prove your configuration is certified as it matches a preconfigured certified configuration.

From what I understand, they are looking to see that the RPM's of the engine are in line with what the original car had (and thus the emissions). It's possible that with a 5 speed, you could prove that your engine will turn less RPM's in all gears and therefore will output less emissions that the original. Could be a tough sell but maybe worth a shot if you can show your RPM's are lower than the original configuration.

Just trying to throw out options.

Good luck.

[josrodes]

Good idea I think.

This is the code on the block D10e-6015-AA it decodes to a 1971 torino/fairlane as far I know.

Don't have the VIN number of the car it came from. Mike got it from a Mustang.

So I need to research the drivetrain info for the 302 models of 1971...4speed maybe hehe, t5 5th gear blockoff plate

[josrodes]

This is not going to work, ever heard of a Borg Warner in an FFR?

FORD TORINO Wagon 302 2V V-8

Gearbox: Borg Warner T-150 (Tremec 150-T)
Number of gears: 3

Gear ratios (overall):
I 2.99 (8.97)
II 1.75 (5.25)
III 1 (3)
IV ()
R 3.17

[John F]

Not sure about 71's, but Borg Warner has made the transmissions for Ford since at least the early 80's.

[steve_mk4]

I don't think you need to have the same make/model tranny. The key is gear ratio and engine RPM. If you can show your tranny has at least the same ratio I think you can plead your case. Having a 5th gear (overdrive) may even help your case as you can show that your RPM's will be lower at cruise then the original car (i.e. lower emissions). May be worth a call to Paul at the MAC center to get his feedback.

-Steve

[Mike Forte]

Hi,
It seems like the system is different at different MAC stations. When I spoke with the head of the Mass DEP or EPA 3 years ago (I have his name at work) they agreed to allow the Tremec as it is an overdrive transmission which reduces fuel consumption and emisions. As for the heads & intake they had no objection to any variation to replacement parts. The internals are unknown to them so it is just replacement parts. The 8.8 rearend was OK because it had no effect on emisions either.
I need to make a few calls on this one.

[KGS365]

measuring the ratio's?.....i don't recall seeing a rolling machine that could measure this at the MAC center I went to!.....I think the bottom line is there is no clear cut road map unless you do a strictly donor build. At some point enough noise will be made and it will get addressed...in the meantime unless you want to put all your donors emission parts back on...just sit tight

[Scott L]

Originally Posted by KGS365

At some point enough noise will be made and it will get addressed...in the meantime unless you want to put all your donors emission parts back on...just sit tight

I'm not sure about this. The current rules are based on the federal standards. When they originally adopted the current standards in 2008, there was a major effort to fight back. Our own Joe Leone, and many others fought for two years to get the law changed, and this resulted in the exempt status for many cars finished by April 2012, or retitled between May 2011 and April 2012. When the "grace period" went into effect we were told that this was it, and when it was over we would be back to the federal rules for good. Certainly anything can change, but I would not hold my breath. I would get going on the 87 motor... good luck.

[dsmith74]

Jose,

There is a way to get this done with what you have...I just PM'd you. Feel free to give me a ring and I'll explain.

Later, -Dave

[Cashburn]

As we head into another season, wanted to put a feeler out there for the actual current MA stance/process? We realize the full donor route is perhaps the most difficult if not impossible for most builders/buyers in MA so we are looking at the alternatives we are aware of.

So here's what we are trying to determine... will the GM E-Rod engine package pass muster in MA? If you used all the components supplied (save the headers) and installed their cats into the sidepipes along with all sensors. Are we good to go on the visual inspection aspect? We know the setup will pass CARB standards, but the actual inspection of components is a big unknown at this point?

To complete the configuration will a Tremec 5 speed transmission matched to an approved differential ratio fly? And what ratio will it require?

In the hopes of adding some information to the discussion, we had a customer successfully get his car inspected and approved last year after the deadline with a new 427 crate engine. The process was rather tricky and I doubt it could be repeated since it relied on the approval of several individuals within the RMV and DEP of MA. Here was the process followed for reference...

Customer had to locate and purchase a pre-1971 vehicle that was registered and on the road in the state of MA (within the last 5 years) with an engine displacement that matched or exceeded the size of the engine he used in his replica. After purchasing this vehicle and fully registering it in his name AND passing inspection with it (so it became road legal again) he then had to have the entire vehicle dismantled (crushed/parted) and from there he received a waiver to apply on his replica vehicle. It was effectively a swap of carbon footprint / eye for an eye / cash for clunkers type operation.

[RE63]

I find it easier to comply than try to circumvent the laws. Full donor, emissions compliant, very doable.

OBDII compliance with a .2000-2004 GT? Super easy. 2003-2004 Mach 1 is easy 2003-2004 Cobra is a little more difficult, but still very do able.

I don't understand this statement at all.........

" We realize the full donor route is perhaps the most difficult if not impossible for most builders/buyers in MA so we are looking at the alternatives we are aware of."

HUH?

Impossible???? not hardly.
I just purchased a 2001 Bullitt with 40K miles on it, this will be the 6th OBDIII compliant Roadster I will have built.

Build it compliant, with all OBDII functions including evap, put the correct tune up decals under the hood, Go get your VIN, register it, take it for a reject, take it to the mac, let them check it, they make the change in the computer, you get get your sticker and go on wth your life.

Easy peasy.

[dsmith74]

Cashburn,

I just finished up getting my dads car emissions exempt using the "pre emissions" car route... We had no other choice, as my dad actually won his car in the 2012 London Cobra Show raffle...so we had no control over the engine, trans, rear end etc...installed in the car.
It really isn't all that difficult once you get the details ironed out.

First you need to contact the MA. DEP and speak with them to get the correct paperwork and discuss the specifics to make sure you're on the right track:

Vehicle emissions & controls Paul Davis 617-348-4080

Paul is a car guy himself, so he's sympathetic about the whole situation. He's extremely helpful, responsive and a pleasure to work with.

Basically, you have to buy a 1974 (not a '71) or older, pre-emissions, vehicle with an engine that falls into one of the below three categories relative to your engine size:

3 or 4 cylinder: Up to 3.0 liters
5 or 6 cylinder: 3.0- 5.0 liters (up to 302 cu in)
Small V8: 4.0-5.4 liters (up to 327)
Medium V8: 5.5-6.7 liters (up to 409)
Large V8: 6.8 liters or more (over 409)

This vehicle you buy has to have an engine that meets the minimum displacement requirements relative to the engine you're trying to exempt. It can be an engine that is in one of the larger categories...but must at least meet the minimum displacement requirements per the above, again relative to your engine displacement. So if you have a 302, you can use a vehicle that has an engine in the small, medium or large categories...but has to at least meet the "small" displacement category requirement.

This vehicle has to have been on the road (titled/registered) within the past 5 years in MA (can obviously be currently registered).

You don't have to register the scrap vehicle, that's not necessary...you just have to title it in your name so that there is a clear record of ownership when you scrap it. At least that's all I had to do in our case...and I'm positive that's what Paul at the DEP told me, but he'll go over this when you speak with him.
You then find a salvage yard that agrees to scrap the car...meaning destroy/crush it and retire the title. They can part out ancillaries, but it's required that the engine, trans, chassis, tub etc...are destroyed. It's clearly stated in the DEP paperwork. I used Nissenbaum Salvage in Somerville.
Take the paperwork provided by the DEP with you to the salvage yard, they will pay you X amount for scrap weight, and they sign the paperwork agreeing they are going to destroy/crush the car...not part it out.
You then take the completed paperwork (make multiple copies for your records) and fax or e-mail Paul a scanned copy of the signed paperwork.
Take your car (assuming it has a VIN and is registered already) and get a rejection sticker...in which case you'll be referred to the MAC for inspection.
Set up an appointment with the MAC, speak to the tech you'll be working with and explain the situation, what you've done, who you're working with at the DEP etc...so that they can do their homework and get up to speed.
Go in for an appt. at the MAC, they inspect the car, sign off on it on their end...and they then sync up with the DEP to confirm everything is in order.
I had to have corrections made on the registration to since the words "replica vehicle" weren't in the alternate fields on the reg.

Once everything is done, either Paul at the DEP, or the MAC tech, will make a change in the registry database so that you're car is then inspected as the year of the vehicle you had destroyed. So if you use a 1971 vehicle...your car will then be inspected as an emissions exempt 1971 vehicle. From that point on you're car will be emissions exempt for life, and the exemption is transferable with ownership...so long as you have the completed paperwork.
In my dad's case, he has a 347 stroker, so, I had to find a car that met the requirements of the "medium" displacement group. I ended up using a currently registered 1973 Pontiac LeMans 350 and had it destroyed.

Like I said, it's a relatively easy process once you know what you're dealing with and have all the specifics in order. It takes a little time because you have to find a vehicle that's '74 or older, meets the displacement requirements, is currently registered or has been within the past 5 years...and won't break the bank.
The biggest hurdle I had was working with the MAC because this is a very new process and NO ONE knows about it...but once they speak to the DEP and get up to speed on the process, it's not so bad. Every MAC tech I spoke to prior to getting this done, with the exception of one out of Fall River, had no idea what I was talking about and thought I was crazy. I ended up working with Phil out of the Tewksbury MAC, and he was awesome to deal with. He too had no idea what I was talking about when I set up my appointment, but, once he got up to speed on everything he was great...very, very helpful.

Hope that helps and if anybody any questions let me know, I'll be happy to assist.

-Dave

Originally Posted by Cashburn

As we head into another season, wanted to put a feeler out there for the actual current MA stance/process? We realize the full donor route is perhaps the most difficult if not impossible for most builders/buyers in MA so we are looking at the alternatives we are aware of.

So here's what we are trying to determine... will the GM E-Rod engine package pass muster in MA? If you used all the components supplied (save the headers) and installed their cats into the sidepipes along with all sensors. Are we good to go on the visual inspection aspect? We know the setup will pass CARB standards, but the actual inspection of components is a big unknown at this point?

To complete the configuration will a Tremec 5 speed transmission matched to an approved differential ratio fly? And what ratio will it require?

In the hopes of adding some information to the discussion, we had a customer successfully get his car inspected and approved last year after the deadline with a new 427 crate engine. The process was rather tricky and I doubt it could be repeated since it relied on the approval of several individuals within the RMV and DEP of MA. Here was the process followed for reference...

Customer had to locate and purchase a pre-1971 vehicle that was registered and on the road in the state of MA (within the last 5 years) with an engine displacement that matched or exceeded the size of the engine he used in his replica. After purchasing this vehicle and fully registering it in his name AND passing inspection with it (so it became road legal again) he then had to have the entire vehicle dismantled (crushed/parted) and from there he received a waiver to apply on his replica vehicle. It was effectively a swap of carbon footprint / eye for an eye / cash for clunkers type operation.

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by RE63

I find it easier to comply than try to circumvent the laws. Full donor, emissions compliant, very doable.

OBDII compliance with a .2000-2004 GT? Super easy. 2003-2004 Mach 1 is easy 2003-2004 Cobra is a little more difficult, but still very do able.

I don't understand this statement at all.........

" We realize the full donor route is perhaps the most difficult if not impossible for most builders/buyers in MA so we are looking at the alternatives we are aware of."

HUH?

Impossible???? not hardly.
I just purchased a 2001 Bullitt with 40K miles on it, this will be the 6th OBDIII compliant Roadster I will have built.

Build it compliant, with all OBDII functions including evap, put the correct tune up decals under the hood, Go get your VIN, register it, take it for a reject, take it to the mac, let them check it, they make the change in the computer, you get get your sticker and go on wth your life.

Easy peasy.

I am glad you've had success with your process and that you are happy with the results. I also hope the process will be as easy for you in your next go around post April 2012 change. However, based on feedback I have heard so far the path is difficult because of general confusion in what is currently acceptable.

As for the difficulty with the full donor route let us imagine if you will there are kit builders that:

- Would like to use all new components including engines.
- Would like a "427" of Ford origins.
- Would like more than 305HP out of the box (Terminator small exception but will see reduced availability as inventory much smaller than other options and many components unique to install are rising in cost).
- May not be building a "Cobra".
- May not be building a FF.
- Missed the deadline and have a large investment in non OBDII components.
- Would like to bring a used kit car in from another state.

I'll stop there since that pretty much covers a majority, in all these cases it is impossible to conform to the donor plan without great expense. So I added the "great expense" part

[Michael Everson]

I helped my last customer go through the clunker route and it wa pretty painless. Not cheap though. Its not that easy to find a pre 74 car that has been registered in the last 5 years. Most are classics that you would not want to crush.
They found a 73 convertible that was in rough shape but the owner was still driving it.
Once the car was properly crushed, the DEP would give us a waiver for the emmisions. We should be recieving that soon.
Mike

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by dsmith74

Cashburn,

I just finished up getting my dads car emissions exempt using the "pre emissions" car route...

Hope that helps and if anybody any questions let me know, I'll be happy to assist.

-Dave

Dave,
Your information is 50% of what I was hoping we could share in this discussion and I am glad you added some firsthand experience. ALSO, that the system was employed this way by more than one person after April 2012. Thanks also for the clarification on the criteria for the "demo" vehicle.

I know from the discussions that SEMA/MA/FF/DEP/EPA etc. had last year that the E-Rod option was defined as a possible option, however I have not been able to find in writing or through communications with Paul at MA DEP that it is approved, he is currently researching it.

Glad your story had a happy ending.

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by Michael Everson

I helped my last customer go through the clunker route and it wa pretty painless. Not cheap though. Its not that easy to find a pre 74 car that has been registered in the last 5 years. Most are classics that you would not want to crush.
They found a 73 convertible that was in rough shape but the owner was still driving it.
Once the car was properly crushed, the DEP would give us a waiver for the emmisions. We should be recieving that soon.
Mike

Mike,
That makes 3 I know of. The hard part as you know is finding a candidate to crush. I know the discussions at one point considered cars up to 1983 or so, that would help everyone if they would allow it.

[rockpool]

This seems to be a total mess - surely there must be a simpler route to use a broker in a more "modern" state who can register the car, then sell it back to you fully titled etc...?

[dsmith74]

Jay,

No worries, glad I can help.
When I first spoke to Paul...I already had the "junker" route in my sights, but he rattled off my options...and I do remember that the E-Rod was one he mentioned. From what I remember he said Chevy had a complete "crate" engine that was carb/EPA compliant to install in a kit-car and would be permissible for emissions/registration etc... I believe this is the e-rod option.

Part of the problem is, most of these processes are still so new they are still in a state of flux, nothing is concrete...and many people aren't sure of what the correct process is. The people at the DEP I dealt with were awesome, and were more than willing to help you out, but, they need to make sure they have all their ducks in a row before giving the go ahead...or else there could be some very expensive mistakes made on our part.

Originally Posted by Cashburn

Dave,
Your information is 50% of what I was hoping we could share in this discussion and I am glad you added some firsthand experience. ALSO, that the system was employed this way by more than one person after April 2012. Thanks also for the clarification on the criteria for the "demo" vehicle.

I know from the discussions that SEMA/MA/FF/DEP/EPA etc. had last year that the E-Rod option was defined as a possible option, however I have not been able to find in writing or through communications with Paul at MA DEP that it is approved, he is currently researching it.

Glad your story had a happy ending.

[dsmith74]

No, it wasn't easy finding a clunker candidate. I would suggest that anyone looking to go this route troll craigslist every day, multiple times a day, for vehicles 74 or older.
Took me about a month, but I finally found a 73 LeMan's 350, which under normal circumstances I'd hate to crush because I love that body style...but it was a rusty mess, only 100K on the clock, and it was in rough shape, but still registered. I paid $1700 for it (which I know is a lot...but, had no other options) and after scrap value which was 270, final tab was $1430. Honestly, not that bad of a price to pay to use the engine/tranny/rear end combo you want and get lifetime emissions exemption...considering what it costs overall to build these cars. I'd imagine it's quite a bit cheaper than going the full donor route.
Well worth it to see the smile on my dad's face once it was legal and on the road...

Mike, regarding your customer...has the car been crushed yet? If so, then, it shouldn't be much more than a visit to the MAC before it's exempted.

-Dave

Originally Posted by Michael Everson

I helped my last customer go through the clunker route and it wa pretty painless. Not cheap though. Its not that easy to find a pre 74 car that has been registered in the last 5 years. Most are classics that you would not want to crush.
They found a 73 convertible that was in rough shape but the owner was still driving it.
Once the car was properly crushed, the DEP would give us a waiver for the emmisions. We should be recieving that soon.
Mike

[Michael Everson]

Yes. Its been crushed. I just havent spoke to them in a couple of weeks. I could be all set, I just dont know.
Mike

[borrone821]

Hey Ron,
Can I ask why the 03-04 Terminators are harder to register with emissions equipment?

[RE63]

Originally Posted by borrone821

Hey Ron,
Can I ask why the 03-04 Terminators are harder to register with emissions equipment?

No more difficult to register or inspect. The build is a bit more complicated is all, very doable though. Lots of "stuff" to fit in there. Heat exchanger, heat exchanger pump, alternator has to be moved, or steering shaft modified...., etc. none of these are emissions issues though,