Daytona Coupe

[westroc]

I have just registered as a new guy so forgive me if this question has come up before. Am about to get out of open wheel road racing and am looking to build a track day car. I want a coupe BUT I want an LS3 and a sequential box w/independent rear suspension. FF said in e-mail there are no mounts available for LS. Before I'm linched for the chevy part why would you not want that technology when it's available and WAY lighter. Anybody out there done one???

[Rich A]

Do a search, mmarshall has a ls coupe.

[Snakebit31]

Search like Rich suggested. Lots of threads. Start here.

New engine in my Coupe!

Rob

[tirod]

The Brand of the motor really makes little difference in competition - what I think you are saying is that the "technology" of the motor - the power to weight ratio and how it can fit in the envelope - is what you see as better.

Not being an LS guy, I don't know. So clarify - why is an LS "better?" I understand it incorporates a lot of newer tech applications, but on a track car that gets abused, torn down, rebuilt, and needs a broadbased logistics support, is it out there? The small block Chevy 350 has that nailed down, and the 351W strokers offer a lot of potential in displacement economically.

What is your class requirements, how does the LS fit, will it deliver the hp levels reliably, is it supportable for the dollar expense compared to others? My concern is less the typical knee jerk Ford/Chevy argument - each has it's advantages and weaknesses. One disadvantage I see is the LS doesn't have the industry low price support the old small block does - but is that true with the equipment and power levels you plan? Is development and support in the marketplace going to help or restrict what cam, intake, and headers you want to use?

Not trying to stir it up with lots of questions, just a sampling of what I would ask and want answered before jumping in. The reality is that spending say, 15% more, just to campaign one motor over another doesn't guarantee a winning season alone, but it does make your expenses that much higher regardless.

It's all about the money, what we think is really meaningless. Nobody thought Carroll Shelby could do it, either.

[MPTech]

Yep, Mike's your man.

New engine in my Coupe!

Aluminum engine is in!

LS1 Coupe is alive!!!

LS1 coupe is back on it's feet


I think this is a great fit for this car and the HP gain and weight reduction are ideal. My ride-along on auto-x was a blast!

[mmarshall]

Thanks Mark!

I did the LS in the Coupe to try to gain TQ/HP and lose weight at the same time. My only regret so far is not doing it with the original build. I bought a 40,000 mile 2003 LS1 for about $500 less than a bare DART aluminum block would have run. The aluminum LS block has cross bolted 6 bolt mains that are dovetailed into the block and will take 700 hp vs the 500 hp for the 302 block. The LS motor loves to rev and makes amazing amounts of torque. My bone stock LS made 350 rwhp / 360 rwtq all for $3500. No built 302 can match that bang for the buck. With the fuel injection of the LS I am currently getting about 7 mpg better than I ever did with the smaller engine. Throttle response is also much better.

Oh did I mention the aluminum engine helped me get down to 2260 lbs? The car now has a better weight distribution, and the drone at the 2000-2500 rpm level is gone and is overall much quieter while cruising. The fumes from the old engine are also gone so now my clothes don't stink anymore. The Corvette power steering pump is so much better without the cavitation and constant whining. I now have 4" of hood clearance with the larger engine vs the 1" of clearance I had before.

The LS aftermarket is just as plentiful as the 5.0 market. The huge difference is guys are getting 500-600 fwhp with just a heads and cam swap. 700-800 na hp is doable with a stroker kit. Since the factory heads are aluminum there are $1000 cnc options that are just as good as a set of $2500 AFR's. Big HP is cheaper and easier than with the 302. If you want to run boost get a iron block as they are good for 1000+ hp with a forged bottom end. I could go on for hours as to the advantages but digress.

Back to the OP's subject. Yes it can be easily done. The engine mounts are easy with some cutting and welding. I went with solid mounts for simplicity and like them very much. I really know very little about the sequential gear box bolting to a LS. Anything is possible!

Pics: http://s464.photobucket.com/albums/r...%20conversion/
Video: http://www.youtube.com/user/stlmarshall

[Roy Hewson]

there are other options. For Example talk to Mike Forte about a Dart aluminum block bored out to 363. That with the aluminum heads---nice . Also Webers or Holley or if you like, fuel injected. You will save the weight and a lot of problems . I' saving my $$$
Roy

[jwall4367]

Forgive me if I sound prejudiced but the Daytona was the ONLY American car to win the world title and it was powered by a Ford.
I know the forum is to be a positive place for comments, and its YOUR money and you can do what you want, but my suggestion is if you want a coupe, buy a Cheetah.
Somebody had to say it and it might as well be me. I know there will be negative comments but I'll take the heat.
My 2 cents.
Jeff

[Thanatopsis]

Originally Posted by jwall4367

... a coupe, buy a Cheetah.

Just a comment on the Cheetah, my God that's an ugly car. I don't think I'd wish that on anybody.

[tirod]

I appreciate the data on the LS. A lot of the same reasoning is why I choose to use a 351W. If anything, it has much of the same hp potential and cost - but does give away some advantage in weight, as aluminum blocks aren't factory or cheap.

As for engine height, the real issue is whether you use a carb or EFI. For clearance, there are other manifolds available for the 351W. On a point by point basis, tho, I'd be hard pressed to say the LS any less a motor.

The question then comes up - why not a Stingray coupe body on a tube frame with LS motor? It's all in the family, same era, same concept. You get to use whatever late model components either way, in that situation, all Corvette running gear would net a homogeneous build with one source car (more or less.) That would fit into the exact same concept as a Daytona Coupe, and pick up the challenge where Chevy dropped it. The '63 Split Window would be much the same thing on the track with a LS motor, 5/6 speed, and modern brakes.

If anything, a modern rendition of the Corvette in fiberglass would be more faithful to itself than what we have in the Daytona. Anyway, it's a kit car, Shelby tried to get the 327 first, no harm, no foul.

[Roy Hewson]

Originally Posted by jwall4367

Forgive me if I sound prejudiced but the Daytona was the ONLY American car to win the world title and it was powered by a Ford.
I know the forum is to be a positive place for comments, and its YOUR money and you can do what you want, but my suggestion is if you want a coupe, buy a Cheetah.
Somebody had to say it and it might as well be me. I know there will be negative comments but I'll take the heat.
My 2 cents.
Jeff

2 cents, that is what the forum is all about. I very much appreciate your views, even though I might not agree. That is why I did the coupe.
Roy

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by jwall4367

Forgive me if I sound prejudiced but the Daytona was the ONLY American car to win the world title and it was powered by a Ford.
I know the forum is to be a positive place for comments, and its YOUR money and you can do what you want, but my suggestion is if you want a coupe, buy a Cheetah.
Somebody had to say it and it might as well be me. I know there will be negative comments but I'll take the heat.
My 2 cents.
Jeff

Jeff it is not prejudiced it is an opinion. Fortunately for now we live in a free country and I get to have one also. Perhaps you should straighten out Mr. Brock 1st and the rest of us will fall in line. BTW I noticed your replica, like mine, lacks leaf springs, bias ply tires, weber carbs, and an aluminum body. Please tell me you at least got the 289 right and didn't use one of those crappy 302's...LOL.

So you want me to pay more to build one of the ugliest kit cars ever made so I don't offend your sensibilities....I don't think so Tim. Man that is one ugly car you chose!

[Grembler2]

the Cheetha was the first kit i was looking at... i myself like the way it looks but i also ended up going with the daytona just cause at the time the only cheetha that i liked was a turnkey car thats done to the originals. the guy who was building them sold out. pics of them are in my photobucket link below. but just for a teaser:

[westroc]

Sorry for the reply delay. Most forums I respond to bounce to my personal e-mail address to tip me of replies and apparently this does not.
So... Why LS? Because it makes the most sense for the dollar. All alum, been out what 10yrs, as bullet proof or more than a cast Ford and I'll bet I don't have to dry sump it either. Stock power @ 480 no porting no aftermarket stuff and stock injection that works. Cheap as building a stroker iron Ford. (summit) and why wouldn't you want sodium filled valves box stock when you are going to spin it up.
What I was hoping not to have to do was to "engineer" the car. That the knowledge base could be mined if even for a price. Getting out of open wheel I was looking for something simpler.
The Cheetah goes like a bat BUT with that wheelbase on an open track hit a bump and it WILL try and kill you. Very fast car and scary as hell. Saw them @ Road America vintage weekend and they are squirrley. Get it straight and kitty bar the door.

[jwall4367]

mmarshall, Yes, I did opt for the 302. Those 289s have too thin of wall for my taste and their getting harder to find in good condition. I've built a couple 289s, one was a real screamer. I wanted a better block and found a Mexican that was very good condition. You have to give credit to the engine builder of those 289s with 360 or 380 hp. They were hitting speeds of close to 200.
As I stated, I'm a Ford guy and will admit those LS series engines are really kick butt. I could be wrong but I thought Mr. Brock has an LS and an auto in his red SPF?
The coupes are an American legend. I'm certain if Shelby had struck a deal with GM the cobra and coupe would have been bow tie powered, but he didn't. I can't say I'm a purist but I like my Ford.
The Cheetha definitely looks different. I read an article that said they were hoping to take it to Europe. I would bet its more of a short track car than something for the long high speed european straights. It front body looks too high for high speed stability.

[stengun]

Howdy,

I'll throw in my $.02 worth..........

I'm a Ford guy.

Pretty simple.

Can't be a Ford guy and not be a Shelby fan.

It I wanted a belly button engine in a kit car I would have built GS Vette.

Is the LS platform a good engine? Yes.

Do I want one? No

Mike makes a lot of good points about the LS platform and Ford really doesn't have anything that compares to it that you can buy used from a junkyard and get 350rwhp but I'm just not a belly button engine type of guy.

Sorry

Paul

[tirod]

It's pretty much known the Cobra was limited, and a short track car, too. The Daytona has 40mph more top end, just from aerodynamics.

As for 289 blocks being thin wall, it's the 5.0 thats known to be the lightest and thinnest. It's questionable over 450 hp, tends to lift the top of the block right thru the cam bearing bores. Ugly pics all over the 'net. The Mexican block, I don't know. I think I remember that was the point - heavier casting.

If I would throw any caution to the wind of the discussion, it's that the motor is just one facet of the build. We tend to focus on them, the motive power is just that, and attraction to power with a capital P.

But it's the final product and the balance it has on the road, in a dynamic situation that makes the record books and the reputation,. Despite all the show car parking lots in the Mall or Main Street. Killer looks are in the eye of the beholder. One man's glitzy metalflake and stainless braided baby is another's poison.

Again, what Brand the motor is has little to do with campaigning one on a race track - unless the Factory is footing the bill. Use the one that can deliver the best performance per dollar basis - it's why the small block Chevy has been popular in racing for decades. I suspect the Coyote Ford will give the LS a good run for it's money, too - it just remains to be seen.

In either case, neither were designed to be "race motors," those aren't installed in any car sold to the public now. They are exclusively built and sold for NASCAR, and they charge accordingly.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by tirod

As for 289 blocks being thin wall, it's the 5.0 thats known to be the lightest and thinnest. It's questionable over 450 hp, tends to lift the top of the block right thru the cam bearing bores. .

Its all in the tune, I have seen forged crank late 5.0 roller block (347) with girdle handle over 550 hp on a chassis dyno and see strip duty. Personally, I would rather insure that build with an aftermarket block.

Ford Racing Boss:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CGgQ8wIwAA


Or Dart (my choice):
Dart 31354175 Ford 302 Sportsman Iron Engine Block

The nice thing about the 5.0 is they are compact, simple, dirt cheap that lends itself very well as an affordable competition grade motor.

[mmarshall]

This is the one I wanted: Dart 31344285 Ford 302 SBF Aluminum Engine Block 4.125" Bore

Too bad it was out of my price range. Stupid budget!

[Roy Hewson]

Originally Posted by mmarshall

This is the one I wanted: Dart 31344285 Ford 302 SBF Aluminum Engine Block 4.125" Bore

Too bad it was out of my price range. Stupid budget!

That the one I'm saving my coupons for. I wil get it through Mike Forte with Dart heads and don't cringe, 4 weber side drafts. It is supposed to be fun isn't it
Roy

[CJBergquist]

Hey Mike. What's a budget????

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by CJBergquist

Hey Mike. What's a budget????

Ha ha! No kidding Chris! I am glad I don't keep track of all the little stuff as it would probably scare me.