Oil Cooler question

[MikeJones]

I've an FFR oil cooler picked up at last week's open house. Spent the two days driving in Toronto's stop and go traffic so need the cooler soon.

Where have you installed an oil cooler? Two locations seem possible - one inside the rad ducting, the other in front of rad & a/c radiators.

Pics??

Thanks, Mike

[Thanatopsis]

These guys recomend between the condenser and radiator.

http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...ns/056-290.pdf

Some more info:
http://www.racing-stuff.com/coolers.htm

Peace,

Dave

[MikeJones]

thanks, Dave but that wouldn't work. The a/c condenser is mounted to the front of the rad. I'm going to mount it between the steering rack and the front of the X-member, and then duct cold air from the beside the base of the rad to the oil cooler. Will also bring a bit more cool air to the engine, which can't hurt. Will post pics when done.

Regards, Mike

[robbyj]

Hi mike that is were i was planning on putting it on an angle down from the rad alumminum back under the rack to the bottom of my battery box (batery mounted behind x member in front of engine) mine has a fan on it so i dont think it will need ducting what was your oil temp running in traffic havent had a chance to drive in it yet working out some bugs ff sent me the wrong rad cap with the kit which slowly bled coolant out and blew the head gasket on my brand new ford crate engine but back up and running have to take a drive to barrie soon and check out your car

[Daytona Dan]

Mike, these photos illustrate how we did my car. Prior to the cooler install I had seen oil temps above 300 while on track on 90+ degree days (obviously not good). Since adding the cooler I have had no overheating issues...and later adding the accumsump (and 3 more quarts of oil) brought the temps down even further.

It's just now getting hot enough to run the cooler (the accusump is doing it a bit already) so you will notice in the photos that I currently have the cooler bypassed. We have the cooler lines capped off so everything is in place and we can easily reconnect when necessary. I will hook it up for the next track event which will be in early August at Watkins Glen, if not end of June at NJMP.

Just getting the oil out of the block/pan and circulating through a remote location seems to make a huge difference. I don't think you'll need the air ducts based on my experience however the traffic jams could be a different story. Maybe you'll have to add a fan to blow air through the cooler but make sure it's switched so you can kill it at speed in order to eliminate any potential air flow restrictions.

[Bob Cowan]

If your goal is to keep the engine cool in traffic, I think you're going about it the wrong way. Oil is heated primarily by rpm's. And the heads are cooled primary by the cooling system. If your RPM's are low and your temps are high, you need to work on your cooling system.

An external oil cooler increases cost, complexity, weight, and chances for a leak. IMO, there's just no good reason for it on a street car.

Occasional jumps in oil temp to 300* is not a big deal, as long as you use the right oil - Like RP or Redline.

[MikeJones]

Thanks for the photos and input. My problem is when hitting stop and go after running on the highway. Start with oil at 235 and water at 210. Then hit stop and go so water rises quickly to about 250 with oil at 280. Coolant expands and starts dumping. When system cools, it sucks enough to empty the reservoir and sucks in air.

I figured if I keep the oil cooler, then the coolant won't need to expand so much. Can the oil be too cool under normal conditions? My plane uses an oil thermostat to reduce flow when temps are below 195 so would add if it became a problem

Maybe I am thinking backwards. Don't have a fan.shroud and could go to a bigger fan. Have a spal 2100 that seems to blow a lot of air.

Thanks mike

[Hankl]

Mike,

A couple of questions, do you have the fan on thermostat control, or do you manually switch it on?

Yes, a shroud would be a great move.

Do you have the nose area sealed of in front of the radiator so the air will not deflect to the path of least resistance?


This is Russ Thompson's Coupe, you can see all the space for the air to move, instead of going thru the radiator.
Closing off this area, and a fan shroud, along with Thermostat controlled fans will help immensely.



Hank

[Sanford]

Just a note. I don't know which oil cooler fitting you got from Factory 5, but when installing the center threaded fitting for the oil filter to thread on, make sure you are not closing the hole with the fitting on the inside of the adapter. Look and you will see. the threaded fitting can go on 2 ways, one will not block the hole as the threads are muffed on one side to limit how fat it goes in. This was to be watched years ago and haven't hear anything about it lately.
Just in case....

[RobbieD]

I was told a while ago, an oil cooler isn't really needed unless you're racing or its REALLY hot (ie Arizona hot). Was also told that if oil is too it cool can cause more problems...

As mentioned above, coolant is the best way to manage heat. Or move to Anchorage.

[Roger Dieter]

I mounted mine in front of the A/C condenser.1289578282673.jpg

[Bob Cowan]

Originally Posted by MikeJones

Start with oil at 235 and water at 210. Then hit stop and go so water rises quickly to about 250 with oil at 280.

Can the oil be too cool under normal conditions?

Thanks mike

That's pretty high, even for AZ. First off, are you sure that's accurate? Use an infrared thermometer on the oil pan and thermostat housing to be sure.

If it is accurate, you really need to work on your cooling system. 210 while cruising down the highway is pretty high. Mine doesn't get that high on the track.

Yes, the oil can be too cold. Max temps are pretty easy to find; and 235* isn't that bad for a true synthetic oil. But minimum temps are much more difficult to find. It's seems like anything below 180* is too cold. The viscosity isn't stabilized, and the additive package doesn't work as well.

[Jetsbaby]

If you don't use an oil thermostat you are asking for trouble..I have a Canton oil thermostat that I bought with my oil cooler that I still has to be installed..It does not open fully until it hits 220 degrees if I remember right...I live in AZ and drive a big block roadster..I do not have the F5 radiator or there cooling fan..I run a AFCO big block radiator and use the Lincoln MK8 fan..I see 220-230 in stop and go here in AZ in the summer. I am running a 514 stroker big block. If you run the provided F5 fan I would see about upgrading that to a higher CFM and if the does not work then a different radiator and THEN the oil cooler in that order..I was also at the open house and looked over your coupe..It was very nice..Dave

[tirod]

Adding the oil cooler would be band-aiding the inefficient water system.

There are a couple of high priority items that have to be included in any coolant system. The radiator must actually be big enough that uncontrolled - no thermostat - circulation is sufficient in the worst circumstances. That's why the major makers have tracks in the desert - to check high heat operation. The air thru the radiator must not be allowed to deflect or bypass, which involves sealing the inflow and having a shroud on the exit that houses at least 1/2" of the fan blades. However the fan is driven, it needs to pass about 2500 CFM - which the tiny add on fans at the local auto parts house will not do.

Operating an e-fan requires the thermo switch to be located upstream of the radiators circulation. Temp probes in the fins or lower tank are positioned too late (like the infamous 87-90 Cherokee setup - Chrysler changed that pronto.) Running a cold thermostat doesn't help, it just covers up some other inadequacy. With a 190 stat and 15 pound cap, the car shouldn't begin to boil until it reaches about 225, and the fan shouldn't need to be on over 30 mph. If it is, the radiator is either too small or not getting all the air thru it.

I won't say that shrouds are absolutely necessary - in my case of one example, the three core radiator half blocked with cardboard will go thru 30 consecutive days over 100 degrees and not overheat using a 190 t-stat, no shroud and no e-fan. I can't get the thing to warm up sufficiently at all, the radiator is just too big for a 4.0 Cherokee. So, it can be done - I just don't recommend it. Most cars have shrouds - check the Coupes, Corvettes, even mini vans.

Oil temps over 280 do break it down, but that level of heat would be better controlled by increasing the efficiency of the coolant system first.

[oxide]

I went the way that most new cars are fitted with oil coolers. Using water to heat and cool the oil.





More information:

Build Log » Oil Cooler - myCoupe

[robbyj]

mike i had a similar problem the expasion tank would be empty after a few runs and thats when i discovered the wrong rad cap it was shiped with the kit and it was for old style cooling systms with top and bottem tanks when u used to leave the coolant down a couple inches from the cap you can tell because the little silver disc on the bottom of the rad cap that lets coolant back in should be spring loaded mine was not if you held the cap up it would hang down 1/8 to 1/4 inch letting the coolant slowly leak out until it bounced shut and sealed then when it cooled it would draw in wht it had leaked out eventually emptying the tank just a thought its hard enough to fill without the parts working against you i have been driving around last couple days in this heat and water temp is 185 oil is 200 with no cooler air con on and 500 hp not toronto traffic but huntsville summer traffic stock fan and shroud will need an oil cooler when i go to the track when i get on it it starts to build heat 220 then i back of but that is after some good pulls good luck will make it to barrie soon

[MikeJones]

Sorry, I didn't put in the correct temperatures. Cruising on the highwayfor more than an hour, my oil temp is 235 and water temp is 165. Shortly after getting into stop and go traffic, the water temp will rise to 210, and then will continue to climb beyond that. Temps are only measured using the autometer gauges.

Rob, you're right about the rad cap, but I do have the right one. It sucks back fine, I'm just blowing out too much coolant when it is hot for a long time. Let me know whenever you're in town.

I do not have any ducting, other than the duct behind the radiator. My fan is operated on a thermostat, and I believe rated for 2100cfm. Hank, I almost said mine looks like Russ' but that just won't be right. Thanks, David, the open house was a good time.

When I slow down, the fan can't pull enough air through the rad to keep it cool. Water temps keep climbing until the speed increases. Anyone with photos on sealing up the front|??

So I'm thinking it backwards - was thinking of adding an oil cooler to keep extreme heat out of the rad, and what I should be doing is allowing the heat to go into the rad and increase air cooling. Ducting first, oil cooler later.

Ron, that cooler looks interesting. Compact and easy to operate. Sanford, thanks for the heads up.

Thanks, Mike

[Bob Cowan]

Originally Posted by oxide

I went the way that most new cars are fitted with oil coolers. Using water to heat and cool the oil.

Oxide, that's called a Heat Exchanger. For a street car, those work really well most of the time. When it's a bit cool out, it will warm the oil up to operating temp. When it's hot it will help cool it down.

BUT - and this is the important part - it's a heat exchanger, no a cooler. When the oil gets hot, it will move the heat from the oil into the coolant. It adds an extra load to the cooling system. If your cooling system is nominal, this will make it worse.

Oil is cooled by RPM's. While cruising down the highway, you're not turning enough rpm's to get the oil that hot, even in AZ in the summer. Generally speaking, oil and water temps run pretty much the same. An oil temp of 235 and a water temp of 165 doesn't match. Before going any further, put an infrared thermometer on the oil pan and thermostat housing to see if the gauges are correct. Wouldn't be the first time a new gauge didn't work correctly.

[oxide]

Originally Posted by Bob Cowan

Oxide, that's called a Heat Exchanger. For a street car, those work really well most of the time. When it's a bit cool out, it will warm the oil up to operating temp. When it's hot it will help cool it down.

BUT - and this is the important part - it's a heat exchanger, no a cooler. When the oil gets hot, it will move the heat from the oil into the coolant. It adds an extra load to the cooling system. If your cooling system is nominal, this will make it worse.

Oil is cooled by RPM's. While cruising down the highway, you're not turning enough rpm's to get the oil that hot, even in AZ in the summer. Generally speaking, oil and water temps run pretty much the same. An oil temp of 235 and a water temp of 165 doesn't match. Before going any further, put an infrared thermometer on the oil pan and thermostat housing to see if the gauges are correct. Wouldn't be the first time a new gauge didn't work correctly.

Bob,

Don't tell Ford it isn't an oil cooler.

MUSTANG BOSS 302 ENGINE OIL COOLER | Part Details for M-6642-MB | Ford Racing Performance Parts

Either an water-to-oil or air-to-oil cooler will put a strain on the rad system. Since unless you mount the air-to-oil cooler in front of the rad, you will not get any cooling when the car is stationary. If it is in front of the rad, then it will restrict cooling by transferring oil heat to the air that goes to the rad.

This is the new way of using an oil cooler and is original equipment on most newer performance cars.

[John-Tucson]

Bob Cowan, I have to disagree with you. Having lived in southern Arizona for 30 + years and owned two Cobras I have experenced temps from a mere 100 to 112 while driving in both city, Phoenix and Tucson, as well as on the Interstate. Out here oil does get HOT.

[Bob Cowan]

Originally Posted by oxide

Bob,

Don't tell Ford it isn't an oil cooler.
.

Ford may call it that, but we know it's really a heat exchanger. These are better for street cars, because they will keep the oil warm on a cold day. That's why Ford uses them instead of a standard cooler.

Peterson Heat Exchanger Oil Coolers

FSR Racing Products 101700 : FSR Water to Oil Heat Exchanger

Originally Posted by John-Tucson

Bob Cowan, I have to disagree with you. Having lived in southern Arizona for 30 + years and owned two Cobras I have experenced temps from a mere 100 to 112 while driving in both city, Phoenix and Tucson, as well as on the Interstate. Out here oil does get HOT.

I was in Moab last week. It was hot - really hot. Like 100-105*. Stuck at a construction zone, and driving through town, the water temp got a bit high, like around 200-205*. But oil temp stayed below 200*. Since I use a true synthetic oil, I don't worry about it until it hits 230-240*. I never used the oil cooler.

[Grembler2]

here is a picture of my setup. it is a heat exchanger also. helps to warm the oil up and then will help maintain a more constant temp. oil temp will always be warmer than the water temp if not useing some way to keep them some what stable with a method of transfering heat. where do you have your temp bulbs at for the oil temp and water? Gordon would be a good person to talk to about oil temps....

[oxide]

Originally Posted by Bob Cowan

Ford may call it that, but we know it's really a heat exchanger. These are better for street cars, because they will keep the oil warm on a cold day. That's why Ford uses them instead of a standard cooler.

Peterson Heat Exchanger Oil Coolers

FSR Racing Products 101700 : FSR Water to Oil Heat Exchanger

Look at how they are described in the two links you posted.

"Heat Exchanger style oil coolers "
"Water to Oil Heat Exhangers provide excellent cooling"

Everything that takes heat and transfers temp from one medium to another medium is a heat exchanger. A radiator is an air to coolant heat exchanger. A air to oil heat exchanger is an "oil cooler". A water to oil heat exchanger is an "oil warmer" at first, but it's main function is to cool the oil since oil temp is generally higher than coolant. What is it's main function and what is the generally accepted name. I'll go with the industry and call it an oil cooler.

[331sbf]

Hey Mike, are you running ally pulley set up? Is it a under drive pulley set up by chance? This will affect coolant flow at idle and stop and go. Ask me how I know!

Have you thought about placing it horizontally behind the radiator in the ducting like the originals? I would definitely run a thermostat controller inline with the oil cooler no matter where you mount the cooler.

[MikeJones]

Regular pulleys, as I have air too. I have an undersize pulley set but never installed.

The oil cooler is too high to go within the ducting behind the fan. It is about 5" tall, though that would be a good place and I've seen others with it there.

My temperatures are measured at the T-stat housing for water and in the pan for oil. I've a line on a infrared gauge so will borrow that too.

I'm going to start with a shroud, and a remote oil filter (filter about 3/8 from headers) then maybe a bigger fan, then the oil cooler with an oil thermostat.

Thanks, Mike

[FFR5452]

I agree with some of the guys above, you have a water cooling problem, not an oil cooling problem.

Solve the water temp problem and your oil will run much cooler. A good shroud and a high capacity puller fan should solve your water problem.

I have an oil cooler and it has virtually no effect until I get above 40 MPH, so, in stop and go traffic, you will notice no change in oil temp.