Dual Quad Carb troubles - can't hold idle - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

 
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Dual Quad Carb troubles - can't hold idle

So, this is pretty much self-inflicted...since when I installed the carbs a few years ago, they were very close to drop in and drive.

I'm running 2 Holley 390CFM carbs (4160 0-8007). About two years ago, I tired swapping valve covers from BB w/ adapters to small block since the BB leaked like crazy, but they didn't clear the valve train properly. Which let to some backfiring. At that time I also played around with the carbs, don't ask me why. I think I did the valve cover swap at the beginning of the season, and felt the carbs needed some adjustment. I know, now I have too many variables to chase...

I switched back to the BB covers, and have never been able to get the engine to idle under 1500 RPMs. Anything less than 1500, it instantly dies. BB covers are sealed up tightly with proper gaskets and Hi-tack; no leaks.

So far, I've done the following:
Pulled off the carb and reset the transition slot to a square
Very slightly cracked the secondaries
Tightened up any accessible bolts on the carb
Ensure the choke was not hanging up the idle
Check all the vacuum caps, and the two hoses coming off the carb for leaks (PCV valve, brake booster)
Checked vacuum, said I was under advanced (can't remember the number...I'll double check the gauge range)
Checked the distribution to ensure clocked properly (haven't rechecked vacuum)
Idle mixture screws at 1 turn out, then played around up to 2.5 turns out

Looking for input on next ideas:
- pull carbs and check for ruptured power valve?
- pull intake, check for damaged intake gasket?
- pull heads, check for damaged head gasket?

Appreciate any insight...thanks!


FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 11:20 AM
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Sounds like a possible vacuum leak.
If the manifold you're using has a shared plenum between the front and rear carbs, I would probably close the throttle blades on the rear carb completely and then just use the idle circuits of the front carb. I've done this before with multiple carb setups and it worked just fine.


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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 12:56 PM
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X2 on what Bigfoot says. Also, if you have a PCV valve, make sure it has not failed.

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys...I've searched for a leak...come up with nothing so far not the exterior.

Regarding the second carb idle, I can't specifically remember, but I thought both were opened a minimal amount when first run. Something to try though...thanks.

Just looked at the vacuum gauge on where the needle was. It was in the 15-17 range, which notes "Late Ignition Timing". Haven't rechecked it since reclocking the distributor though.

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315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 03:02 PM
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It sounds like a vacuum leak to me. Try this. When the engine is cold, take a can of carburetor cleaner, start up the engine and spray around anywhere there could possibly be a vacuum leak. If the RPMs increase, you just found the spot where the leak is. This trick has helped me out a few times.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 02:22 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys...I'll keep troubleshooting for leaks. Glad to see no one immediately said it a blown gasket.

FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 12:04 PM
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Be careful if you start closing down throttle plates to not close them completely. If the plates close completely, they end up sticking to the wall of the throttle body and give a rough initial movement. It gets to be a very fine adjustment so I use a feeler gauge of .002-.003.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 02:13 PM
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How is your linkage set up? Right now both carbs seem to be set up the same. (t-slot) This should result in twice the required air flow at idle since you have two carbs. And cause the high idle speed.

Glen

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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I agree Craig...at one time, had the secondaries completely closed...and they would constantly get stuck. Gotta keep 'em cracked a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
Be careful if you start closing down throttle plates to not close them completely. If the plates close completely, they end up sticking to the wall of the throttle body and give a rough initial movement. It gets to be a very fine adjustment so I use a feeler gauge of .002-.003.

FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-22-2017, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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Glen - It's a linkage that is adjustable and also slotted for the rear carb. You can kinda see it in this older pic...I'll need to snap a better one:



I'm pretty sure that initially both had cracked primary butterflies...but could be wrong. I would think they need equal flow at idle? I may try calling All State Carbs to see how they originally set them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsides9 View Post
How is your linkage set up? Right now both carbs seem to be set up the same. (t-slot) This should result in twice the required air flow at idle since you have two carbs. And cause the high idle speed.

Glen



FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-23-2017, 05:46 PM
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Power valves don't like backfiring. When they are bad, they dump fuel. Replacing them requires removing at least the front carb. It probably will not respond much to idle mixture adjustments with bad power valves. If there are no leaks, pull a spark plug and it should be black from too much fuel. I think you opened every butterfly from their original adjustment so you may have to close them some to get back in the ballpark.

Be patient, Glen

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Last edited by gsides9; 05-23-2017 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Different plan
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-23-2017, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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Glen - thanks for the insight on busted power valves...I didn't know how they would behave once ruptured. Closing the mixture screws definitely shuts down the engine. That eliminates the PV. I probably won't get around to running / testing it until the weekend. I will follow up with findings...thanks!

FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 01:53 AM
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Look at a spark plug or two so you know that the fuel/air mixture is close
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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You read my mind...I pulled all the plugs tonight, and also did a compression test. All within 10psi. I assume that's acceptable? Or is there a correlation that the ones at 190psi are wetter?!?

Didn't play around with the carbs tonight.

I also noticed at least one loose header bolt...I'll plan to tighten those down, and may check the intake bolts too.


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315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 04:21 AM
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Looks like you found part of your problem. #1 & 8 look completely fouled. Probably not even firing. #2 is the only one that looks decent. Maybe it's just the photo, but #3 looks like the electrode is damaged. Anyway, I'd put in a new set of plugs and then start over on the carb adjustments.

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 02:01 AM
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Be sure to check your intake gaskets.

I ran a Blue Thunder dual quad intake with 390 Holleys on my car for several years. Eventually developed a water leak at the intake and when I pulled the intake to inspect I noticed that there was very little gasket sealing surface at the top of the intake ports.

It appeared to me that the Blue Thunder was developed off the original Ford design for cast iron small block heads. The aluminum heads on my 302 have larger intake ports which reduced the sealing surface area above the ports. Due to that and the poor port matching between the intake and the heads I chickened-out and installed an Air Gap dual plane single four barrel with a 600 vacuum secondary carb.

I hope you can get your dual quad setup fixed because they sure look cool.

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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 03:09 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Bob - a few look decent, but at least a few are definitely soaked or fouled. Autolites are cheap, so that's an easy change out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobl View Post
Looks like you found part of your problem. #1 & 8 look completely fouled. Probably not even firing. #2 is the only one that looks decent. Maybe it's just the photo, but #3 looks like the electrode is damaged. Anyway, I'd put in a new set of plugs and then start over on the carb adjustments.

Bob

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315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 03:15 AM Thread Starter
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Jim - that's exactly what I'm running...the Holley 390s with Blue Thunder intake. Interesting point on the gasket coverage...I'm running AFR 185s and whichever gaskets they (or Blue Thunder) recommended.

I don't recall seeing white or blue smoke from the pipes...so hopefully no water or oil entering the cylinders. Could a leaky intake manifest as a high idle / vacuum leak?

Thanks Jim!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Doak View Post
Be sure to check your intake gaskets.

I ran a Blue Thunder dual quad intake with 390 Holleys on my car for several years. Eventually developed a water leak at the intake and when I pulled the intake to inspect I noticed that there was very little gasket sealing surface at the top of the intake ports.

It appeared to me that the Blue Thunder was developed off the original Ford design for cast iron small block heads. The aluminum heads on my 302 have larger intake ports which reduced the sealing surface area above the ports. Due to that and the poor port matching between the intake and the heads I chickened-out and installed an Air Gap dual plane single four barrel with a 600 vacuum secondary carb.

I hope you can get your dual quad setup fixed because they sure look cool.

FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 12:34 PM
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If you take the intake off the felpro w/ the S3 suffix are the steel insert intake gaskets.
1250 S-3 (port size 1.20" x 2.00")
1262 S-3 (port size 1.28" x 2.10")
1253 S-2 & 1253 S-3 (SVO/Yates head w/port size 1.35" x1.95)

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 01:45 PM
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Great call on the compression check, now we all know you have good head gaskets, valves and rings. It looks like oil fouled some of the plugs and it probably came from bad intake manifold gaskets. Leaking on the lifter galley side.

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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 01:45 PM
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I cannot recall the part number, but the Felpros without the steel layer, are terrible. I put a set on a Ford 340 hp crate engine. After some trouble getting a good tune, pulling the intake revealed the intake gaskets had turned to mush around the water passages. There are numerous reports of this happening on corral.net, with the good and bad part numbers.
It seems like the gaskets might have been "print o seal" or something like that.

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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 05:06 PM
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Yep, from what i have seen the water passages are actually more often the problem than the intake but...if the gasket doesn't seal one passage it's suspect on the others too. And then add in the couple of comments above about this exact manifold having problems sure makes the intake look like a possible cause.

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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2017, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Just looked at AFRs website...they recommend the 1262 gasket, so I'm sure that's what I used. Most likely did not get the S3 version at the time, unless its standard issue.

I'm pretty sure I laid a small bead around the coolant ports, on the head side...not sure on the intake side. Either way...

Looking quickly at my setup, since I'm running the BB valvecovers, looks like the covers and adapters all need to come off to get the intake out. Frig!

Seems to make sense to be the intake gaskets based on the findings so far, and everyone's input. I may install new plugs and try capping off the PCV and master cylinder just to be sure it's not one of those lines causing the leak, but I don't think so.

More to come...

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331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-29-2017, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Alright boys...just ordered a set of the 1262 S-3. Soon to start the teardown process.

Looking at the intake gasket from above, looks like it has a wrinkle in a few spots...so I think this is the culprit. I'll try to grab a pic.

Also looked at my prior order...it was the standard 1250 gaskets. I have the older AFR 185s...so I think 1250 were the recommendation at the time. Seems to be the 1262s now for the Renegade and even for the older ones. We'll see.

FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 01:36 AM Thread Starter
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Ok...valve covers and adapter plates off. This provided a better view of the intake gasket area. Looks to be me like blow out / leak in a few spots, based on the discolored streaking. Here's the pics so far:




FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 01:35 PM
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They do not usually leak on the top. More likely, on the bottom of the ports, or between ports or coolant ports. If your oil is not milky or you are not smoking, probably between the ports. Getting ahead of the game a little, but look into using some studs to guide the intake down between the heads onto the new gaskets.

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-31-2017, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
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Made some better progress tonight than I thought I would. Carbs are off, intake off too.

With the carbs off, I put a flashlight on the spots noted above, and turned the garage lights off. Sure enough, was able to see light in the intake port. Also snapped a pic of the gasket pushed into the intake runner.

Railroad - I hear ya...already got a set of bolts with the heads cut off as guide studs!

Next is the clean up and rebuild process...






FFR4462K MKII
331 Dual 390CFM Holley Quads, AFR 185s, Comp Cams XE274HR
315 Mod, IRS, FR500s, Power Cobra Brakes, Manual Steering

'68 Mustang Hardtop, 302, C4


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