Won't Start... (no fuel pressure) - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

 1Thanks
  • 1 Post By CraigS
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
Won't Start... (no fuel pressure)

I've taken my roadster out two times this season ... on the second trip, it got me to the brewery just fine, but not home. Here's the symptoms:

The good: Cranks over fine, battery is fully charged, grounds look good. Checked one cylinder for spark with a spark plug tester light, and it looks good (flashed at a regular interval).

The bad: Very low to no fuel pressure at the Schroeder valve on the fuel rail near the intake. I replaced the fuel filter last night with a WIX brand filter and if anything it seems as if the fuel pressure got LOWER. When I turn the key to RUN, i can hear the whir of the fuel pump, so I figured it was good. Plus, I dumped the fuel line into a gas can and it did squirt some fuel, so I figured the fuel pump was OK (unless there was a siphon effect happening when I was in the cockpit...).

Setup: Stock donor build from a 1989 Ford Mustang LX

QUESTIONS: What would you all do next? Drop the tank and replace the pump? Should I first remove the line from the fuel filter and plug it with the fuel gauge tool to see if the pump is generating enough pressure?

I'm surprised that the car seemed to be running OK for the first few (short) trips of the season. Maybe on the second-to-last startup, I could have had a slow start, but it barely caught my attention.

Your input is appreciated!!


-Joe-

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


FFR #3905
yohappa is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 06:48 PM
FFCobra Craftsman
 
CraigS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Manassas, Va
Posts: 17,869
It will a pain since there are no other shraeder valves in the system. But all you can do is check at various points from the tank forward. I would start first by pulling the pump for a visual check. Look at two things; 1- the condition of the inlet sock/filter screen at the bottom of the pickup. 2- Above the pump there is a section of rubber hose 1.5 to 2 inches long connecting the pump to the top tube. This hose often splits.
http://www.cjponyparts.com/bbk-in-ta...997/p/BBK1607/
The white rectangle is the sock. The black 'S' is the rubber hose.


FFR 5353K, 408W, TKO 500, 2015 IRS w/ 315 gear, Breeze QA1 DA coilovers front and rear, APE hardtop, Forte front swaybar
CraigS is offline  
post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 08:04 PM
Unconventional Builder
 
JoeE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hatboro SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,095
Garage
Pull the filter ideally make a section of hose to go from tank side of filter to a container. Dont just pull filter and flip the switch. You will need two people; one to turn ignition and you hold hose and look at output. The ECU will shutoff pump in a few seconds if it doesn't get and ignition fire signal.

The flow should be pretty strong like garden hose valve turned on above half way. If it just runs out dribbling, pump is problem. If it shoots out then keep working your way forward. Being able to put a fuel pressure gauge on the end of the hose sections would be best, make sure you get and EFI gauge up to 60 or so psi.

This would work, loaner. You pay for it then when you bring it back full refund.
Best Fuel Pump Diagnostic Kit Parts for Cars, Trucks & SUVs

Donor $2,500 -Kit $18,000 -Extra "needs stuff" $100's -$1,000's
300+hp tagged race car PRICELESS !! Best ET 12.27 @ 113.49 mph N/A
Mk III #5294 -302 AFR 185 Heads, Levy Front and Rear control arms, 3-link, 3.55, 11" GT front and 11" Cobra rear brakes, SAI, UTC exhaust No More EFI: Now Quick Fuel 650

“It is not the giver of life that destroys human life. It is the receivers of life who do not live in the rational, honest way called for by the creator's behavioral law. Instead they live as they please and finally are forced to depart this life.” Richard W. Wetherill

YouTube Videos:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Pics:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JoeE is offline  
 
post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 02:44 AM
Senior Charter Member
FFCars Craftsman
 
Dave M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Danbury/ Ct.
Posts: 1,429
Before I tore everything apart I'd check the fuel regulator to see if it's bypassing most of the fuel back to the tank. Of course that assumes you have the stock fuel system set up. I'm kind of lazy so I always go for the easy to get at stuff first.

MK3#5902 picked up 1/13/07, 88 donor 306 w/b303 EFI purchased 3/31/07,first start and gocart ride 9/20/07 color- Ford Performance White w/ True Blue Metalic stripes. Inspected and registered 7/31/08
Dave M is offline  
post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 02:51 AM
Official OLD GUY
FFCars Captain
 
Big Blocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lost Wages, Nevada
Posts: 3,235
Firing signal

As mentioned above, the pump circuit in the EEC needs to see that the engine is turning over (running) to continually provide a fuel pump run signal and keep the pump running after initial key turn on.

You can by-pass this "triggering effect" by connecting a 12 volt source to the power lead to the pump - pump will run continuously. Rig a fuel line to the input side of the filter and then place the loose end in a container.
Turn on your 12 volt source. If the pump is good and continues to run, you should have a container of gas real quick.

A fuel pressure gauge connected to the hose end will tell you a lot . . .

If the pump won't flow enough gas to fill the container in a very short period of time, pretty good bet that the pump is bad or plugged in the tank. That can happen if the baffle wall has broken loose and is disrupting the flow to the pickup filter screen, or has knocked it off completely.

If all the above tests prove the pump is good, next step is to re-connect your filter and test again after the filter - you should be able to get the exact same results as above.

Other option is that you have a PIP going bad and it's not providing the fire trigger to keep the pump running.

Get the pump verified first and then we can go on from there . . .

Keep us updated.

HTH

Doc

little block, BIG BLOCK . . .
HUMMMMMMM?
FFR3712K (POPSDRM) in Lost Wages, NV.
MKII, 5.0, "Tubular" GT40-EFI, E-303, T5, 17" 5-Lug Chrome Cobra "R's", Nitto 275/315's, PBR 4 wheel Disks, Full Tubular/Coil-Over suspension, 20:1 Flaming River, 3.73's, 3-Link, Drop Butt mod, Dash forward mod, Custom Footbox Air vents, Extended PS footbox, Custom Turn Signals, Custom 4-into-4 headers, Non-Donor build, Ford Royal Blue Pearl w/ Arctic White stripes.
Big Blocker is offline  
post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
Here's a video of my attempt today with a jury rigged harbor freight gauge connected to the output line of the filter (didnt have the right tools to connect directly to the pump today)

https://youtu.be/pSWmoAG2_hk

Thoughts?
yohappa is offline  
post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 09:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Norton MA USA Earth
Posts: 7,496
What pressure was it reading? If the pressure was good, reassemble and try pinching off the return line and see if it starts. You may have a bad regulator.
Mike
Michael Everson is offline  
post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 09:41 PM
Senior Charter Member
 
CRZN 427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Posts: 4,754
Same Here...

I used an '88 GT donor tank and fuel pump. worked fine for a year then all of a sudden crappy running. It would start but had no low end power.

As CraigS mentioned, it was the little rubber hose that connects the fuel pump to the line inside the tank. My failure was almost hidden at the back side of the hose as l looked at it.

Pull the pump, taking care to not loose the thin plastic screen filter that is attached to the bottom of the unit. Take apart what is necessary to replace the hose using fuel line rated for modern fuel as the old style rubber won't stand up.

It is easy to do.

Regards, Rick.

Driving a car like this is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

"Too Much Is Just Right" $helby
CRZN 427 is offline  
post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
I'm thinking it's the fuel pump rather than the regulator since it won't even fire up for a moment. Does that rationale hold water?

With that, I think the next step is to drop the tank and replace the pump. Does anyone have advice on dropping the tank with the body and trunk aluminum installed? Can I remove just two of the four bolts holding the tank straps on?
yohappa is offline  
post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 10:38 PM
Junior Charter Member
FFCars Master Craftsman
 
Avalanche325's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Posts: 2,438
You said you had pressure gauge. Check at the fuel rail first. Don't take anything apart until you do that.

Avalanche325 is offline  
post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-15-2017, 02:13 AM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
I did check at the fuel rail, no pressure.
yohappa is offline  
post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-15-2017, 07:13 AM
Senior Charter Member
 
CRZN 427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Posts: 4,754
Measure First...

Do a layout of where the fuel pump is located and cut an access hole to remove it. A cover plate can be made to keep dirt and such out later. It can be either screwed or riveted in place so future removal won't be an issue. The size of the hole isn't critical as long as the pump can be removed through it. Cut a small one and enlarge it to be big enough, the cover is then easy to layout.

When you get the pump out you can readily tell if it is the hose, then check to see if a new pump might be needed.

Regards, Rick.

Driving a car like this is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

"Too Much Is Just Right" $helby
CRZN 427 is offline  
post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 04:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 346
X2 what Rick said about the access hole. Do the same for the float as well. Makes changing a pump or float so much easier.
conger is offline  
post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 11:09 AM
FFCobra Craftsman
 
CraigS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Manassas, Va
Posts: 17,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by yohappa View Post
I'm thinking it's the fuel pump rather than the regulator since it won't even fire up for a moment. Does that rationale hold water?
No. W/o the pressure regulator working properly you could have the pump working just fine. It is FLOWING fuel just fine. But w/o the variable restriction of the regulator you get no pressure. Think of a garden hose w/ nothing on the end and a pressure gauge somewhere in the middle. Water flowing out like crazy and zero on the gauge. Now put your squirter nozzle on the end. If it's not squirting you have full system pressure on the gauge. As you squirt more and more the pressure will drop off.
yohappa thanked this.

FFR 5353K, 408W, TKO 500, 2015 IRS w/ 315 gear, Breeze QA1 DA coilovers front and rear, APE hardtop, Forte front swaybar
CraigS is offline  
post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
Thanks, CraigS! I'd like to avoid cutting a hole in my trunk or dropping my tank if at all possible, especially if there's a chance it's not the pump. After all, I did replace the pump (and I believe the whole pump assembly, if my memory serves me) when I worked on that part of my build, years ago.

Question: Would it benefit me to create an artificial vaccuum at the regulator with my MightyVac pump to see if that sets the regulator valve in the right position for running?

-Joe-

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


FFR #3905
yohappa is offline  
post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Norton MA USA Earth
Posts: 7,496
Joe. Did you read my post. Pinch off the rubber return line to the tank and see if your pressure goes up. If it does its the pressure regulator. If not its in the tank. You said in your original post that some fuel came out of the line when the pump ran. It should have very heavy flow (for a 3/8 line) Bet the issue is in the tank.
Mike
Michael Everson is offline  
post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 03:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 39
if you hear the pump running - it is not the pump.....
most likely is the the connector hose between the pump and the hard line as has been mentioned by several posters - you still gotta go in to the tank to repair.
and be sure to use hose specifically intended for use "submersed in fuel" or it will fail again
sread is offline  
post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 05:26 PM
FFCobra Craftsman
 
CraigS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Manassas, Va
Posts: 17,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by yohappa View Post
Thanks, CraigS! I'd like to avoid cutting a hole in my trunk or dropping my tank if at all possible, especially if there's a chance it's not the pump. After all, I did replace the pump (and I believe the whole pump assembly, if my memory serves me) when I worked on that part of my build, years ago.

Question: Would it benefit me to create an artificial vaccuum at the regulator with my MightyVac pump to see if that sets the regulator valve in the right position for running?
Beyond pinching off the return line as Mike suggests, the common test is to pull the vac line off of the regulator. But this is done on a running engine so I add this for your understanding of how it works. High vacuum, as in idling or low throttle opening cruise, creates the lowest fuel pressure for the leanest mixture. When you hit the gas, the vac drops, and the fuel pressure increases, which makes the mixture richer. I don't remember exact numbers but the change is maybe 10-15# of fuel pressure and the engine should run just fine at either the highest or lowest of that range.

FFR 5353K, 408W, TKO 500, 2015 IRS w/ 315 gear, Breeze QA1 DA coilovers front and rear, APE hardtop, Forte front swaybar
CraigS is offline  
post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 06:35 PM
Senior Member
FFCars Master Craftsman
 
David Williamson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 1,714
the tank is not hard to drop down, just heavy if you have lots of gas in it. Get a cheap hand pump and pump the gas into another car. Unbolt the filler from the body and 2 bolts at the front of the straps and down it will come. Just watch how long the wires and fuel lines are.
David W

FFR-4874 Mk ll, 3 bar coilovers, 5.0 with Edelbrock heads, RPM ll intake, 70mm TB, 24lb injectors, bullit replicas. Registered Aug 04, Lexus Indigo ink, silver stripes. Dec 06 POM
Gen 3 coupe #16, Dart 363 TKO600 Wilwood's IRS - under construction
David Williamson is offline  
post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 09:16 PM
FFCobra Craftsman
 
CraigS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Manassas, Va
Posts: 17,869
I agree w/ David but will add that it's really good to drain the tank as completely as possible. I had a 1/4 tank in mine when I dropped it a year ago. The problem is that all is going fine as you lower it, but then just a slight tilt causes all the fuel to run to one side. Bam, it's on the ground in an ugly way.

FFR 5353K, 408W, TKO 500, 2015 IRS w/ 315 gear, Breeze QA1 DA coilovers front and rear, APE hardtop, Forte front swaybar
CraigS is offline  
post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
Thanks for all of the input, guys. Should have some time this weekend to get into things ... I'm going to futz around with trying to pinch off the return line first, then I'll drain and drop the tank. Stay tuned...

-Joe-

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


FFR #3905
yohappa is offline  
post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
Senior Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 176
Send a message via AIM to yohappa
Found the culprit! Sure enough, it was the line between the pump and the hard line exiting the tank. The outside was eroded to the point of being mailable like putty. Could the root cause of the erosion have been having a fuel tank filled with Stabil-treated gas from a few years ago?

Last question: should I replace the whole assembly with a Walbro 255 or similar? Or how about a Precision brand replacement assembly including th hose (so that I don't have to install the hose myself). Pump sounded like it was running fine before, but I don't want to have to drop the tank every few years either!
yohappa is offline  
post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 01:13 AM
Senior Member
FFCars Craftsman
 
Norm B's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Airdrie, Alberta
Posts: 663
Garage
Don't know about replacing the whole thing but if you replace the fuel line between the pump and tank outlet, make sure you get one suitable for use in submerged locations. Normal fuel line will do exactly the same as the failed one.

HTH

Norm

Mk 4 Base 7721, 302, Carb, T5, 355 traction lock, rear disc, heater, wipers, foot well vents, whitby soft top, dropped trunk floor and more.
Norm B is online now  
post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
FFCars Craftsman
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Beaufort S.C.
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by yohappa View Post
Found the culprit! Sure enough, it was the line between the pump and the hard line exiting the tank. The outside was eroded to the point of being mailable like putty. Could the root cause of the erosion have been having a fuel tank filled with Stabil-treated gas from a few years ago?

Last question: should I replace the whole assembly with a Walbro 255 or similar? Or how about a Precision brand replacement assembly including th hose (so that I don't have to install the hose myself). Pump sounded like it was running fine before, but I don't want to have to drop the tank every few years either!
Its a crap-shoot - could last ten years OR could fail tomorrow!


Blair
FFR 4676K 2003 MKII completed 10/13 by others
302 Donor build,heater,VPM Coilovers, Charcoal Gray with Pepper Gray stripes,King Cobra Clutch, Custom shifter,65mm AccuFab Throttle Body,EGR Delete,75mmMassAir,GT40 Tubular Intake, Edlebrock Aluminum Heads, TW Cam-and it ain't finished yet!
g8rnbft is offline  
post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 08:59 PM
Senior Member
 
2bking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Garland, Tx
Posts: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by yohappa View Post
Last question: should I replace the whole assembly with a Walbro 255 or similar?
For a 5.0 engine a 255 pump is an overkill and forces the regulator to return a lot of fuel back to the tank. For a 5.0 engine a 155 lph pump is more than adequate. Also the high rate of flow from an oversized pump can erode the fuel lines, especially the ones with soft linings.

King
Coyote build
Roadster 8127, Ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2bking is offline  
post #26 of 26 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 09:34 PM
FFCobra Craftsman
 
CraigS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Manassas, Va
Posts: 17,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
For a 5.0 engine a 255 pump is an overkill and forces the regulator to return a lot of fuel back to the tank. For a 5.0 engine a 155 lph pump is more than adequate. Also the high rate of flow from an oversized pump can erode the fuel lines, especially the ones with soft linings.
I agree. A standard pump is just fine. Just because you have had a problem w/ your relatively new pump, research replacement sources. Others will have opinions, hopefully based on their experiences, but I would tend to go to NAPA locally. Or ck w/ Breeze;
Breeze Automotive Factory Five Racing

FFR 5353K, 408W, TKO 500, 2015 IRS w/ 315 gear, Breeze QA1 DA coilovers front and rear, APE hardtop, Forte front swaybar
CraigS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome

 

Welcome to FFCars! The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the FFCars.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Factory Five Racing, Inc. or Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by FFCars.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Factory Five Racing, Inc. or Ford Motor Company for any purpose. "FFR", "Factory Five", "Factory Five Racing", and the Factory Five Racing logo are registered trademarks of Factory Five Racing, Inc. FFCars.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting the FFCars.com Forum dedicated to Factory Five.