Anybody have an O2 sensor fail? - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Anybody have an O2 sensor fail?

For those of you who put your O2 sensor in the collector, have you ever had one fail? If so, how was your sensor oriented?

I've read loads and loads of threads where folks debate where to put the sensor, and I'm certainly not trying to start yet another one. I have not, however, read any anecdotes about a failure. Seems as if moisture or condensation were truly a problem, there would have been at least one.

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 03:27 PM
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Had one fail after a couple of years and several thousand miles on a car I built. They're located in the collector as shown in this photo:



They were new when installed. Don't really have a diagnosis as to why it failed

Jeff

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:22 PM
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I have heard that having the sensor oriented pointing upwards as shown in Jeff's photo can allow condensation in the exhaust to condense on the ceramic in the sensor leaving exhaust residue on the sensor causing inaccurate reading of oxygen in the exhaust. Although technically not catastrophic I would call that a failure.

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 08:23 PM
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The sensor should be horizontal or angled downward, never up.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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So only one confirmed failure out of the 200+ views?

Admittedly this is a small sample size, but it appears that these sensors are pretty robust.


John

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 05:11 PM
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Old farts pre computer question. What happens when one fails? Had some fail on other cars that I replaced myself but only knew they were dead because of fault codes turning on. Got a "heater" O2 fault now on the car.

Bank 1 is DS or PS?

Also just in case what is the replacement unit ID for the COYOTE?


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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHISTORY View Post
Old farts pre computer question. What happens when one fails?
Depends on the nature of the failure; whether it quits reading altogether or if it starts sending incorrect information to the ECU. The one that I had fail was erroneously telling the computer that bank was rich so it kept trying to cut back fuel which actually made it excessively lean to the point that the car was in a constant lean stumble and ran terribly. Unplugged the sensors so that it couldn't go into closed loop and was running on baseline mapping and it ran fine. After replacing the bad sensor all was well again.

Jeff

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
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Bank 1 is DS or PS?

Also just in case what is the replacement unit ID for the COYOTE?
Bank 1 is where the number 1 cylinder is located. On a Ford engine, that would the right side, or PS this side of the pond. The 2011-2015 Controls Pack instructions list the sensor as 8F9A-9Y460-EA, which crosses to Motorcraft DY-1165. I suspect the number is also on the sensor itself so you could confirm.

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 08:54 PM
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Thanks, will confirm when I jack up the car for the other stuff I am working on.

BTW FWIW mine sit at the 12:00 position on the tubes.


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Kevin

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHISTORY View Post

BTW FWIW mine sit at the 12:00 position on the tubes.
You said collector in your first post so unless you have the merged 4 into 1 into 4 headers the only way it can be at 12 o'clock in the collector would be if it sticks straight up after the 4 pipes merge on the outside of the body Or...do you have it at 12 o'clock in an individual header tube?

Jeff


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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 09:37 PM
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I built my MK1 1n 2000 and bought new O2 sensors at the time. They were in J pipes on a 5.0 motor. since then I have changed to a 351 based engine and 351 J-pipes. Then back to the 5.0, and back to the 351. Then I changed to 4-hole flange FFR pipes with Quiet pipes welded on them. I had to buy FFR SS j-pipes. With all this changing I have used the same O-2 sensors, and have never thrown a code. Wish me luck for the next 17 years. BTW the sensors are positions at about 1:30 on the SS J-pipes.

Ergie
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JKleiner View Post
You said collector in your first post so unless you have the merged 4 into 1 into 4 headers the only way it can be at 12 o'clock in the collector would be if it sticks straight up after the 4 pipes merge on the outside of the body Or...do you have it at 12 o'clock in an individual header tube?

Jeff
It has shorty headers with a J-Pipe to the side pipes. Bung is at the 12:00 position in the J-Pipe which I think of as a collector.


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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 07:02 PM
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I had one fail, that I use for carb tuning. I left it installed for a while, but did not have my wide band unit turned on. They don't last long at all that way. $75.00 lesson.

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-25-2017, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by phileas_fogg View Post
So only one confirmed failure out of the 200+ views?

Admittedly this is a small sample size, but it appears that these sensors are pretty robust.


John
You're using the Holley Terminator and I as well you know. Put it in the collector before the side pipe connection. You can't really get it level, but it'll work just fine. One thing to watch out for is any low curb, etc. because if you hit it, it'll get destroyed.

As for failure, I've had one of my Holley fail (due to track corner burms) . I replaced it and now a little less aggressive on right turns. If it does fail, the engine will run like crap. However, if you have your laptop or 3.5" screen connected, you can put it in OPEN loop and drive home. It'll use your programmed settings and not "adjust" as you go. When the new one goes in, revert back to CLOSED loop. All good.

Side note: I keep an extra in my garage so I don't have to wait and order one. You can get them from Holley or Summit Racing.

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-25-2017, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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You're using the Holley Terminator and I as well you know. Put it in the collector before the side pipe connection. You can't really get it level, but it'll work just fine. One thing to watch out for is any low curb, etc. because if you hit it, it'll get destroyed.

As for failure, I've had one of my Holley fail (due to track corner burms) . I replaced it and now a little less aggressive on right turns. If it does fail, the engine will run like crap. However, if you have your laptop or 3.5" screen connected, you can put it in OPEN loop and drive home. It'll use your programmed settings and not "adjust" as you go. When the new one goes in, revert back to CLOSED loop. All good.

Side note: I keep an extra in my garage so I don't have to wait and order one. You can get them from Holley or Summit Racing.
Hi Glenn!

I wish I could put it in the collector before the side pipe connection. Unfortunately, my headers don't have such a thing:



So it'll have to go in the side pipe.


John

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-25-2017, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone who replied.

What got me going on this thread was struggling with how to orient the sensor in the side pipe. I'd read tons of threads saying what MJN & daveS53 said and, at first, I was going to position the sensor like Holley says (not less than 10 degrees above horizontal). But of course, that puts the sensor into the body. I was going to notch the body for the sensor, but then I saw a video showing how much the side pipes move up and down when you get on the gas. Plus getting that notch exactly right would have been almost impossible.

I figure there have to be at least 30 guys who have seen this thread that have their O2 sensor permanently installed with it oriented below horizontal. Seems to me that if condensation were killing these sensors on a regular or frequent basis, they'd have reported that. Instead, we've only got one confirmed failure (thanks Jeff!) that came after a couple years and several thousand miles.

Unless a bunch of folks jump in with reports of their sensor failing, I'm going to install my O2 sensor just like Jeff showed in his picture.


John

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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks to everyone who replied.

What got me going on this thread was struggling with how to orient the sensor in the side pipe. I'd read tons of threads saying what MJN & daveS53 said and, at first, I was going to position the sensor like Holley says (not less than 10 degrees above horizontal). But of course, that puts the sensor into the body. I was going to notch the body for the sensor, but then I saw a video showing how much the side pipes move up and down when you get on the gas. Plus getting that notch exactly right would have been almost impossible.

I figure there have to be at least 30 guys who have seen this thread that have their O2 sensor permanently installed with it oriented below horizontal. Seems to me that if condensation were killing these sensors on a regular or frequent basis, they'd have reported that. Instead, we've only got one confirmed failure (thanks Jeff!) that came after a couple years and several thousand miles.

Unless a bunch of folks jump in with reports of their sensor failing, I'm going to install my O2 sensor just like Jeff showed in his picture.


John
That's what I meant. Collector before the exhaust because that's the only collector after the 4 into 4. Should've been more clear. To help you out, notch the body a little for the O2 body and you can raise it up a bit more to level. You won't see it.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 09:19 PM
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This is from GM document 19171935, available online. I didn't make it up.

Oxygen Sensors: NOTE: It is critical that the Oxygen Sensors are mounted per the instructions below. The exhaust system MUST be properly sealed – any leak near the sensors (upstream or downstream) can cause incorrect operation of the fuel control system. Vehicle performance and/or driveability may be affected if sensors are not mounted as recommended or if an exhaust leak exists. Leak check the exhaust system to ensure adequate sealing (even small leaks can affect fuel control). Oxygen Sensors should be mounted in the collector area of the exhaust manifolds in a location that allows exhaust from all cylinders to be sampled equally (stock exhaust manifolds include a mounting boss for the oxygen sensors). Be sure the connectors and wiring are routed away from high heat areas. The oxygen sensors should be mounted with the sensor tip pointing between horizontal and fully downward – do not mount with the tip oriented upward. Weld in the mounting bosses supplied (7/8” hole) if using headers.

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 11:43 PM
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If it was me, I'd put them in the headers and be done with it.
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