Hydraulic Clutch Issue - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Hydraulic Clutch Issue

Background:

Went out for a cruise yesterday and decided to take the 95 for the first time this season. It was perfect, nice and quiet which is extremely rare so thought I would get her up to speed. Before entering I stopped at the toll booth and for some reason it popped into neutral either just when I was stopping or when I had fully stopped and had not a chance to put her in neutral. Did not think much of it and drove up onto the highway making it to fourth and was doing 50-55mph. I went to put her in fifth and my clutch went to the floor. Of course not the best place to happen and I cruised to my exit when I had to stop at a stop sign. I could not get her into first or second but could get her into third and drove as far as I could hoping I could make the one light but alas nope. I had to stop and that was it, she would not go into gear. I pulled over and looked under to see some fluid had leaked. Opened the hood and looked into the reservoir, empty. Had her on a flatbed within 30 minutes and back home (was only a mile away).

Today I put her up on stands and got underneath. Everything looked okay so then went at the MC, all good there no leaks. I filled up the reservoir again and pumped the clutch, look under and more fluid on the floor. Got back under and felt around more and found the bleeder had opened up. Tightened it back down and pumped the clutch a bunch more times. No more fluid on the floor so kept pumping but the clutch is not getting stiffer. Opened the bleeder a tiny bit, pumped the clutch a bunch more and fluid is pumping out the bleeder no problem. So fluid is being pumped from the reservoir down but the clutch has zero resistance. Any ideas or is there possibly still air somewhere and instead of gravity bleeding as I did previously, I likely will need to pump some down? Anything else that could be wrong?

Tks.

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:13 AM
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My vote is air still in the system. I pressure bleed every system I can and never a problem. I have CNC reservoirs and made a cap with an air fitting in it fill reservoirs and set an air regulator to 10 pounds. Open the bleeder and let it go for about 10 seconds. Remove air pressure and refill reservoirs. Do this a couple of times with brakes and clutch and they come out rock hard. I have made other reservoir covers for different types of cars and it works well. Somehow get pressure on top and bleed all the air out.


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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 03:48 AM
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Yeah, sure sounds like air in the lines. I am sure that you checked that the push rod between the slave cylinder and the throw out arm is in proper place.

If anyone is not familiar with bleeding tools, the power bleeder that toy4me referred to might be one that I use. Motive Products "power bleeder" is a very simple tool for one person bleeding of clutch or brake systems.

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:11 AM
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since you ran the system dry you will need to re-bleed completely, and bleeding a master while in car can be tricky and take some time.

pump pump pump the pedal - hold it almost to the floor - open the bleeder - close the bleeder- release pedal - repeat till there are no bubbles.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone. I drew a brain fart on bleeding correctly yesterday as I was concerned that something else may be wrong. I will bleed her today and I do have a bleeding tool albeit not the one mentioned.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 10:58 AM
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X3 on using a pressure cap for bleeding. I too have the CNC reservoirs and their pressure cap, which is just one of their stock caps with a Schrader valve installed into it. I've used this setup for brakes and clutch bleeding numerous times, always with quick and positive results. I suppose this could be a bleed issue, with air still in the system. But the clutch circuit especially is pretty quick and easy to bleed. Gravity bleeding that circuit is also usually successful.

I'm concerned about the fluid loss. If you're convinced it's the result of a loose bleeder screw, OK. But if there's any hint of other sources of a leak, like around the piston/rubber boot, then that's concerning. Is this a Mike Forte setup with the CNC slave? Those CNC slaves have been known to fail. Also, with some MC/slave combinations, the slave is driven beyond its designed throw, which can cause it to fail and maybe cause damage to the seals. If it was working properly before then I would expect the basic setup, e.g. pushrod, TOB, clutch arm, pivot, etc. are all correct.

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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:06 PM
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When I was helping w/ a build w/ an internal slave we had a heck of a time bleeding the clutch. 2.5 hours of two of us and no luck. The owner called the people he got the system from and they explained clutches are different than brakes. Brakes are high pressure low fluid movement. Clutches are low pressure large fluid movement. Pressure bleeding for clutches. We rigged up an old fish tank air pump and a bunch of hoses and had a clutch in about 5 minutes.

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:25 PM
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I filled my hydraulic clutch by pumping fluid from the slave as shown at 5:30 in this video:
(thanks to no lot for posting). The process was simplicity itself; half an hour of work and I’ve got a working clutch!

If you use this method:

1. Be sure to start with a clean hand oiler, and check that the manufacturer didn't pre-oil the pump. You don't want any contaminants in your fluid.
2. Pump a few ounces of fluid through the hand oiler first to make sure you flush out any debris. Mine had a bunch of dust-looking particles until I flushed them out.
3. Put paper towels under the connection point between your hand oiler & the bleed screw on the slave. Doing so helps contain & control the mess from inevitable leakage.
4. Put paper towels under the connection point between the master and the flex line. It "shouldn't" leak (and mine didn't), but this is cheap insurance.
5. After you're done, make sure the pushrod on the slave is in the correct position. Mine was overextended, presumably from the pressure of the fluid pushing it out as it filled the system. Over time and operation of the clutch pedal, the pushrod worked its way back into position.


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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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Paul, yes this is from Forte. I thought perhaps the issue with the slave was my problem but it looks okay. It was running fine for the first 600 miles so I am leaning towards the bleeder just coming loose.

Interesting solution Craig. Would. It have thought of using fish tank equipment but hey if it works, it works.

John, yes I recall that vid and plan to try that today. Tks for the reminder.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Just following up on this. It seems the loose bleeder was the issue. Re-bled the clutch and nice and hard now.

Another question related to this. Does everyone add a clutch stop to their builds? I am referring to the possible issue that Paul raised and how to ensure avoiding that from occurring.


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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDubU View Post
Just following up on this. It seems the loose bleeder was the issue. Re-bled the clutch and nice and hard now.

Another question related to this. Does everyone add a clutch stop to their builds? I am referring to the possible issue that Paul raised and how to ensure avoiding that from occurring.
I would say yes, you should have a stop of some kind if it's possible to overdrive the slave by pushing the pedal in too far. With the 1-inch master I have in my latest build, hard against the floor still doesn't exceed the travel of the slave, so that's my stop.

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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 02:50 PM
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I am planning a mechanical clutch stop, and will get that designed, built, and installed when the body comes back off in a month or two.

Right now, I have the 1" master and the CNC 7/8" (I think) slave. At full pedal stroke, the slave piston just starts to come out of the housing, just the piston, not the seals. It's probably fine, but I don't like to see any of the piston popping out. The main reason I am putting in a clutch pedal stop though, is that right now, my clutch safety switch is acting as a stop. It's just a small mount for the switch, and at full pedal stroke it is putting a bind on the switch. I see the day coming when that switch mount will fail because of the stress from the pedal over and over. So a pedal stop it is.
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