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post #31 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 04:11 PM
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Had similar problem with fuel draining down into the intake and flooding the engine. Turned out to be a cracked base on the carb. Hope that's not your problem.


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post #32 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 04:15 PM
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Without measuring my phenolic spacer is atleast 3/4'" or 1"


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post #33 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 05:01 PM
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I've got a 351w with a holley carb, NO spacer and have none of the problems ur describing. I think it's a good idea to do a diagnostics check of ur carb. It sure sounds like a leak somewhere, likely a stuck valve. U gotta take it off anyway for the spacer.
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post #34 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2015, 11:56 PM
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I'm not sure - as a mechanical secondary carb does it have front and rear accelerator pump circuits? My (cheap) 1850 dual Holleys percolate fuel through the accelerator pump circuits about 15 minutes after a hot shut down. Not too surprising since the accelerator pump bowl sits on the bottom of the float bowl and gets direct heat off the intake. You can actually see it spurting fuel out of the shooter nozzles. I've reduced it with Mr. Gasket aluminum plate shields under the carbs.




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post #35 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-29-2015, 01:23 AM Thread Starter
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percolate fuel through the accelerator pump circuits about 15 minutes after a hot shut down. Not too surprising since the accelerator pump bowl sits on the bottom of the float bowl and gets direct heat off the intake. You can actually see it spurting fuel out of the shooter nozzles.
I bet that's what my problem is. For now, I have it solved with lots of spacer and a shield. If that doesn't completely solve it, I'm ordering the phenolic spacer.


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post #36 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, so almost a year and a half later, the problem still exists. I'm tired of living with this.

Here's the synopsis:
  • QuickFuel 650 Mechanical Secondary carb on a 351w
  • When the engine is hot (normal working temp 180 degrees), after shutdown, the fuel in both the primary and secondary bowls drain into the intake in about 15-20 minutes.
  • When the engine is cool, the fuel does not drain
  • I have both a phenolic spacer and one of the Cool Carb spacers installed at the same time
  • Initially, when I started having this issue, the fuel level was half way up the sight windows, now the level is set to just above the bottom of the window, same problems
  • fuel pressure is regulated at 6.5 psi, the recommended amount by QuickFuel. Pressure drops to zero within 30 seconds of engine shutdown.
  • I have not done anything with the power valve, there's only one on the primary side and since both bowls are emptying, that rules that out.
  • It's not a needle and seat issue, otherwise more fuel would enter the bowls
  • I have not done anything with the accelerator pumps
  • I'm not interested in filling up with non-methanol gas every time to keep this from happening

I thought I'd revive this thread and see if anyone had any suggestions. Otherwise, I guess I have to call QuickFuel and talk to the tech reps. It always seems that I'm inconveniencing them by my calls.


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post #37 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 11:50 PM
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I guess I have to call QuickFuel and talk to the tech reps. It always seems that I'm inconveniencing them by my calls.
I have had good luck speaking with them. Maybe call first thing in the morning before everyone else calls.

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post #38 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 02:01 AM
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I have not tuned any Quik fuel carbs, but if they are Holley design, try lowering your fuel bowl level below the sight window as instructed in Holley tuning instructions. You should only see the fuel if you rock the car.
Sorta jumping in on the end of this, I have seen squirters give up some fuel in several different situations. Some intakes and heads had an exhaust crossover to warm the intake. If applicable these can be blocked. After market heads may not have the exhaust crossover.
What kind of fuel pump do you have? return line? fuel pressure regulator? Any chance the fuel is getting heated or aerated enroute to the carbs?
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post #39 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 02:33 AM Thread Starter
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Here's what I have: Edelbrock RPM heads and intake, Holley billet aluminum mechanical fuel pump with a fuel regulator set to 6.5psi (verified by two gauges), no return line (carb setup), and my braided stainless fuel line is wrapped in heat insulation (precautionary measure).


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post #40 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:05 AM
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Well that ruled out all the easy fixes. Does quik fuel recommend the fuel level up into the sight hole? Probably not an issue, but an easy adjustment. You think a heavier needle on the squirter would keep it from boiling out? Not that you would go to this much trouble, but I have built a ball check valve in the circuit for a high reving 4 cylinder. The vibration was so intense it would start pushing fuel out the squirter nozzles. If the fuel in the bowl boils, the vent tube should keep it from pushing on the accel pump circuit. Late model Holleys use a rubber umbrella seal. The older ones used a ball check valve. If the pump lever and housing are touching any thing metal, it might be boiling in the pump and the bowl just refills it, until the gas is gone. Sounds like a lot of gas to get gone, but I guess it is possible. I sure would like do a little wrenching on them. If you like, keep bouncing stuff off me. We might stumble upon something.

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post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:40 AM
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Just a thought, since you have eliminated the most obvious culprits, is your local fuel high in ethanol content? If so, boiling point is drastically reduced over non ethanol blends.

This has happened to others in high ethanol states.

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post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill_VA View Post
My laser thermometer says the float bowls are reaching 140-150 degrees. I'm guessing the boiling point of gasoline is higher than that, I don't know.

Any other suggestions?
This is not going to help but I looked this up based on what one of the tech suggested about changing gasoline.

The flash point of a volatile material is the lowest temperature needed to evaporate enough fluid to form a combustible concentration of gas. Gasoline has a flash point of -45F and an auto-ignition temperature of 536F. [1] Gasoline's aviation fuel counterpart Kerosene holds a flash point of 100F and an auto-ignition temperature of 428F. [1] Of course, there are deviations based on the actual composition of the fuel.

In one of your posts you said the tech said it may be the low boiling of E85 so try regular gas and see what happens.

I found the following from a firefighting site, however, note below it is not this simple.

E85
Boiling Point 173
Flash Point 55

Regular Gasoline - No Ethanol
Boiling Point 102
Flash Point -45

From another site:
unleaded pump gasoline (or petrol if you prefer), is a combination of many different compounds, each with its own physical properties. The various oil companies have their own proprietary blends that vary from region to region and by season of the year.

A liquid is said to be boiling when its vapor pressure exceeds atmospheric pressure. That's why boiling temperatures increase with added pressure, and decrease when pressure is removed. The different hydrocarbon chains that may make up pump gasoline have boiling points ranging from as low as 10 degrees F, all the way up to over 600 degrees F. Without knowing the exact composition of the fuel, an accurate boiling point can not be predicted.


And I also know gasoline composition changes with the seasons.

So, I am.

How about filling the fuel bowls with gas when the engine is cool, ignition on, and not even start it. What happens to the fuel after you shut the ignition off, fuel pump off? The heat, if it is a problem, will be eliminated.

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post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:28 PM
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How about filling the fuel bowls with gas when the engine is cool, ignition on, and not even start it. What happens to the fuel after you shut the ignition off, fuel pump off? The heat, if it is a problem, will be eliminated.

George
I like this idea. I live about 5 mi from Bill and have a mild 408 w/ QF 650AN w/ a 1/2 inch spacer made from that plywood looking material and a mechanical pump. No extra insulation on the fuel lines. My float levels are somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 way up the sight glass. I have never had a similar problem. I get premium gas from BP, 7-11, and very occassionaly, Sunoco, so I don't think it is a locality related gas supply problem.

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post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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How about filling the fuel bowls with gas when the engine is cool, ignition on, and not even start it. What happens to the fuel after you shut the ignition off, fuel pump off? The heat, if it is a problem, will be eliminated.
George
Did that yesterday (again to verify), bowls stay full when engine is cool.


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post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 01:50 PM
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I think we have confirmed info to work with. The fuel is not the issue. The fuel is being pushed out the accel pump squirters.
The bowls are empty after the heat soak. Fuel lines are not heated, pressure is right.
Not for sure, do we have an insulating carb spacer? I would pull the squirter nozzles and make sure the needles have a good face on them. Then check the seats. If removable take them out and make sure they are clean and not damaged. What are the chances of both the front and back being bad. Sorta throws a curve in there, but still would check them. I guess we can ask if the bowl vents are clear and not blocked by the air filter. Gotta start somewhere, that is all I've got for now.
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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:03 PM
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Make sure you don't have a vacuum leak. I'm not that familiar with the Quickfuels, but the Holleys will drain fuel through the squirters if there is a vacuum leak at the carb. I have experienced this, and it took me quite a while to find the problem.
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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Make sure you don't have a vacuum leak. I'm not that familiar with the Quickfuels, but the Holleys will drain fuel through the squirters if there is a vacuum leak at the carb. I have experienced this, and it took me quite a while to find the problem.
That's interesting. The only vacuum port I'm using is the rear port at the base for the PCV valve, no vacuum advance, all other ports are plugged. Where else might there be a vacuum leak?

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do we have an insulating carb spacer? I guess we can ask if the bowl vents are clear and not blocked by the air filter.
I actually have two insulating carb spacers. Bowl vents are not blocked, plenty of clearance.


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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 03:53 PM
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How about water flow through the intake manifold from the heads?

  • Did you mount the intake manifold gaskets and can you be sure there is good flow at the front and back of the heads through the intake manifold, through the thermostat and onto the radiator?

  • What degree thermostat do you have?

  • Have you tested the thermostat?

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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:28 PM
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Check the caps on the small vacuum ports. Those small caps will crack from heat and start leaking. That's what I found on my Holley. Once I found the problem I always carried some extra caps with me in the car.
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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:50 PM
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Bill, sorry to hear that your problem is persisting. I have the exact same set up as you, carb, intake, pump, gauge, etc. I'm wondering why it looses pressure so quickly. Mine will hold 6.5 lbs of fuel pressure for 3-4 hours so certainly sounds like an internal leak in the carb somewhere. Have you thought about a rebuild, I'm wondering if a gasket is leaking after it gets soft when hot. Maybe the metering block gasket(s) or main body gasket? or perhaps the carb spacers are allowing the base plate to warp slightly when the carb is tightened down? Just a couple of thoughts for what they are worth. Hope you figure it out. Scott

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post #51 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:55 PM
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Two important suggestions where made and I upon quick read, I didn't see an answer to either but I could have missed.

1. Take off the air cleaner and look down the carb when you shut down after operating temp is reached. Floats that drain that quickly should be obvious

2. Check timing lately?

I'm running same setup QF on a 392W. Running a Holly aluminum shield which includes a 1/2" isolator. Base timing set 13edg with vac advance.


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post #52 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:59 PM
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Post a picture of your setup from all angles and include line routing from mech pump. Picture is worth 1000 words.

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post #53 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 05:11 PM
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Found this video. There are some seals I didn't even know existed, e.g. for the mixture screws. I also forgot about the small gaskets under the squirters.
I was wondering if you temporarily increased your fuel pressure if that might help you spot where it is leaking from? Scott

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post #54 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 05:39 PM
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I had flooding issues with my Quickfuel 750 too. All with the rear float bowl. Every time I'd remove, wash out and reinstall the the needle and seat. Finally I looked into the float bowl window and saw the float was not close to level in the bowl, but the float level was correct. Off comes the bowl and I bent/adjusted the arm that the needle rides on. I also washed the dirt out of the bowl and one of the jets. The parts in there look to be well made, compared to a Holley. Even the gasket was reusable. The engine runs fine and was brought up to temperature before shut down. The float is now parallel to the bowl. Two days later, the fuel is still right there in the window. It was 43 degrees, but the engine was 180. Before changing the float, my carb drained too. I never paid attention to how fast. We took out all the spacer/insulators from under the carb so the hood would close on our 408 equipped Coupe. (maximum heat transfer)

I think that if your fuel was evaporating, it would just be disappearing. Yours drains into the intake manifold. I think I would be looking for a defective part that sticks open when it is hot, something like a power valve or accelerator pump that would drain the carb if it stuck open.

Maybe someone will lend you a carburetor to test run.


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post #55 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 02:19 AM Thread Starter
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George, cooling is fine, temps are fairly normal. 180 degree thermostat that works fine. The coolant temp sensor is in the intake.

Dward, for grins I'll replace all the vacuum port caps. Thanks

Johnny, the pressure drops off quickly as the fuel pump allows it to by design. I get the feeling the techs are going to recommend that I rebuild the carb and replace all the gaskets. Thanks for the video link

Todd, timing is good. I've tried to catch the fuel dripping from the squirters, but never could see it. Maybe I'll try it again. I had that exact Holley aluminum shield, but replaced it with the Cool Carb spacer that did the same thing but provided even more thermal protection. I'll take a bunch of photos tomorrow.

The guy I bought the carb from is purportedly a carb guru that inspects the carbs before shipping them out. The last time I spoke with him he mentioned a possible clog in the anti-siphon port in the metering blocks. I cleaned them out, but didn't seem to make a difference.

I think we've probably bench-troubleshot this to death. I'll implement a few of the suggestions and call tech support and let you all know how it goes. Thanks!


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post #56 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 05:50 PM
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Bill, I thought of one more thing that could possibly be causing your problem. Make sure the squirters have a gasket underneath. With no gasket there, you will probably not see fuel dripping, but it will seep out and run down inside the carb. After a drive, cut the engine off and let it set a few minutes, then look inside the carb and see if the throttle blades are wet. If so, then it's probably coming from the squirters. Just a thought.
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post #57 of 61 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 04:50 AM
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Find someone nearby and swap to a different carb. If problem persists, you know it's not the carb.

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post #58 of 61 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM
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The guy I bought the carb from is purportedly a carb guru that inspects the carbs before shipping them out. The last time I spoke with him he mentioned a possible clog in the anti-siphon port in the metering blocks. I cleaned them out, but didn't seem to make a difference.
Was it a new carb that you purchased not rebuilt/reman? No need to Id the guy.

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post #59 of 61 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JoeE View Post
Was it a new carb that you purchased not rebuilt/reman? No need to Id the guy.
Oh, it was new. Great guy, really knows his stuff. I spoke with him yesterday and he advised me to check the anti-siphon ports in the metering blocks. They are impossibly small and the slightest piece of something can clog them and cause this condition. I pulled the metering blocks off and they seemed clogged before cleaning them out. You have to clean them with a can of brake cleaner and a single strand of wire from a small gauge wire. Unfortunately, on the secondary block, the wire got stuck and broke off in the block, so now I have a replacement secondary metering block on its way from Summit Racing.

BTW, in case you didn't know, Quick Fuel is now owned by Holley.


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post #60 of 61 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill_VA View Post
...
BTW, in case you didn't know, Quick Fuel is now owned by Holley.
Glad it looks like you found something. I hope it proves to be a cure. Not sure how I like them being owned by Holley. Seems we all bought QF for a reason.

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